Adventures in outsmarting oneself, or why being cute just because you can, is not a good thing.

mrblaine

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Quail Valley, CA
We attempted to mate up a Customer Supplied Yukon 5.5" hub kit to our Super 16 BBK and it was a no go. Yukon deviated from Warn by deleting the rotor hat spacer that moved the rotor back towards the knuckle by just increasing the flange thickness by 3/16" more than how Warn did it. Great, good idea but that screws up putting it all together with that brake kit because there isn't enough room between the rotor and mounting bosses on the knuckle that the saddle bolts to. That is the start of me being dumb.

I use that knowledge to my "advantage" since I have the Warn original so no big deal, thinner flange and I want bigger brakes on the TJ-6. I mock it all up on the test fixture, good to go. I send out the hubs and rotors, clock the pattern over and have it drilled and tapped for 1/2-20 at the flange and 1/2" clearance holes in the rotor hat. That lets me use any common length screw in stud instead of the limited length press in versions in case I need longer studs because why not, I'm good at this, right? Turns looking somewhat like this after a fair bit of effort to trim down the bolt bosses on the saddle to move it inward.

DSC_6107.JPG

Looks good, I'm all happy and proud of myself for just how cute I can get with shit that others don't do. That pic has two things that are the start of me kicking my own ass. Below shows where the problems start.

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First problem is the rotor was within a business card thickness of rubbing on the grease boot. The second problem laying on the ground didn't show up until much later. First problem, alright I'm a smart guy, I'll just make a spacer out of 1/8" aluminum and move the spindle out, that will move the rotor out, I'll use some of my fancy special spacers between the caliper saddle and knuckle, piece of cake, so I do and now I've got rid of the grease boot problem.

I sneak a few minutes here and there, some contemplation and come up with a semi-permanent method to mount the lower shock mounts and still be able to drive it to paint, then adjust afterwards when it is all put together. I just extended the lower inner flange, drilled it, bolted it up to the lower control arm bolt and tack welded the corners. (at my assumed ride height)


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I'm pretty happy about all this until I cycle the steering lock to lock and discover that the caliper body just touches the shock mount at full lock. Well, crap, that's not gonna work since the caliper moves inward as the pads wear. Now I'm starting to realize that being cute is not all it is cracked up to be.

I spend some hours doing parts research and I find that Wilwood makes a rotor ring for a two piece rotor that is the exact size of the one I'm using. Great, lots of dimension checking to make sure the mounting bolts for the hat won't hit my caliper saddle and I order a pair in and they're cheap, sub 70 each delivered.

All good until I try to find a shallower rotor hat to move the rotor away from the shock mount. They have one blank option, they actually have two hats that will work but only one can be bought as a blank. It is painful at 155 bucks each. I get two and send them out to get machined to fit, open up the center bore and drill the 5.5" bolt circle of 1/2" clearance holes. That adds another 50 bucks to each hat cost.

Looks something like this. Anyone see the problem yet?

DSC00146.JPG


I had been using low head screw in wheel studs to keep the head height down to stop the knuckle bolts that hold the spindle on from hitting the heads of the wheel studs.

DSC00154.JPG


The head diameter means they won't fit next to the inner wall of the new rotor hat. I order up some 1/2-20 socket head cap screws and finally get the new rotor mounted up to the bearing hub. I install it onto the knuckle so we can start figuring out what it is going to take to make the caliper saddle center up.

Hub goes on, turns just fine, everything is wonderful except the caliper saddle needs a spacer of 1/8" to be centered. Aha! Remember the 1/8" aluminum spacer I made, just remove that from behind the spindle and the saddle will be nicely centered so back apart it comes, we bolt it all up without the spacer and it's all perfect, well except for the part where the rotor won't turn because my fancy ARP knuckle bolts are now exactly 1/8" too long and hit the heads of the socket cap screws that hold the rotor to the flange. Yep, I'm getting my ass kicked but I'm still standing and not down for the count. We pull the knuckle bolts one at a time, cut them down, reinstall and it is good. Looks about like this.

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We got it done but it sure doesn't always pay to be cute and do shit just because you can.
 
Well you just proved that the impossible really just takes a pro a little longer.

Every day I deal with trades people that say “it can’t be done” and they are dealing with the easiest of mediums- wood.

Thank you for the post Blaine, I love to get a glimpse into the mind of gifted people- a lot of determination and creativity shows up.
 
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Good job.
I think a lot of people don’t understand the time and skill required to create new products
The saddest part is having to cut down those ARP bolts. I went looking for some that are 80 millimeters long and found them in stock at one place only with somewhat questionable accuracy as to what is actually in stock.
 
In a world that seems to only post “how great this is” I’m great full for post like this that show how progress and regress are accomplished seemingly at the same time.

Thanks for taking the time.

I can’t even begin to tell you how many times a well intended modification turned into a, well that’s not what I expected moment. Ending with a not sure I would do that again modification. Lol
 
In a world that seems to only post “how great this is” I’m great full for post like this that show how progress and regress are accomplished seemingly at the same time.

Thanks for taking the time.

I can’t even begin to tell you how many times a well intended modification turned into a, well that’s not what I expected moment. Ending with a not sure I would do that again modification. Lol
When you do dumb stuff, it really helps if you are stubborn and persistent. That and this was never a well intentioned mod. It was me showing off.
 
Lol, I have been accused of all the above.
On a side note please keep us updated on what you think of the Yukon hubs. I’ve seen them in use but never installed them. I’ve been thinking of getting a set so when I pop mile markers (which will happened) I can swap these in.

as appealing as failing in the lock position is, I may be wrong.
 
In a world that seems to only post “how great this is” I’m great full for post like this that show how progress and regress are accomplished seemingly at the same time.

There is a passage in the book "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" that perfectly describes Blaine's process in general.

“Sometime look at a novice workman or a bad workman and compare his expression with that of a craftsman whose work you know is excellent and you’ll see the difference. The craftsman isn’t ever following a single line of instruction. He’s making decisions as he goes along. For that reason he’ll be absorbed and attentive to what he’s doing even though he doesn’t deliberately contrive this. His motions and the machine are in a kind of harmony. He isn’t following any set of written instructions because the nature of the material at hand determines his thoughts and motions, which simultaneously change the nature of the material at hand. The material and his thoughts are changing together in a progression of changes until his mind is at rest at the same time the material is right.”

When you do dumb stuff, it really helps if you are stubborn and persistent. That and this was never a well intentioned mod. It was me showing off.

It was you showing off what seems impossible is not impossible 🙂 but it did remind me a little of this clip from "Malcolm in the middle" except that that you finished it and made it look pretty much factory.

 
Tedious work is the hardest work.

Did they just change the hubs? I have the small hub kit, curious if I should be looking for spares if any other parts have changed.
 
This is one of the reasons why aerospace and submarine designers / builders went to computer aided design back in the early 1970's. It's a lot of work to get all the data into the computer, but once it is there, it is much easier and cheaper to move stuff on the screen than in real life. The computers show interference issues and unworkable situations. I still remember Ford made a car back in the 1960's that required you to pull the engine to change the spark plugs. Today, with the advent of (relatively) cheap computers almost every industry uses CAD. I wonder if anyone had ever 'digitized' the TJ?
Congrats for following the traditional 'trial and error' method of design/build to completion. It's not easy, but it is how a lot of stuff got built in this world.
 
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Lol, I have been accused of all the above.
On a side note please keep us updated on what you think of the Yukon hubs. I’ve seen them in use but never installed them. I’ve been thinking of getting a set so when I pop mile markers (which will happened) I can swap these in.

as appealing as failing in the lock position is, I may be wrong.
The hardcore hubs are the only item I will personally allow to penetrate my hypocrisy fence I live inside of. I don't know who they copied but they did a very good job. However, like everything else they do, they require some fiddling to get set up right.
 
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Tedious work is the hardest work.

Did they just change the hubs? I have the small hub kit, curious if I should be looking for spares if any other parts have changed.
They changed the bearing hub to have a thicker flange in place of the spacer and flange to move the rotor back. Warn did it that was to use the same bearing hub on the rear for the full float kit.

We've done a lot of the Yukon small hub stuff and I don't see any differences that matter.
 
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Knowing what you know now, would you have gone with the press-in studs vs thread-in?
 
This is one of the reasons why aerospace and submarine designers / builders went to computer aided design back in the early 1970's. It's a lot of work to get all the data into the computer, but once it is there, it is much easier and cheaper to move stuff on the screen than in real life. The computers show interference issues and unworkable situations. I still remember Ford made a car back in the 1960's that required you to pull the engine to change the spark plugs. Today, with the advent of (relatively) cheap computers almost every industry uses CAD. I wonder if anyone had ever 'digitized' the TJ?
Congrats for following the traditional 'trial and error' method of design/build to completion. It's not easy, but it is how a lot of stuff got built in this world.
I have a relatively scarce library of LJ cad from SEMA. Unfortunately I own a ‘97 lol
 
Knowing what you know now, would you have gone with the press-in studs vs thread-in?
Absolutely not. That was never an option. I would have had my machinist build me a custom rotor hat with a larger ID inside the hat and get rid of the small recess behind the edge of the flange. It would have been straight sided to match the OD of the flange on the bearing hub. There is only one option for a longer press in stud. I have it, it would not have worked since the head is larger than the screw in low profile stud.

I've dealt with far too many short stud issues on these to ever use press in on my personal stuff.
 
Thanks for sharing your self ass kicking experience.
However This time the end goal was achieved! you ran it to ground and made it all work.
Blaine, I am sure the frustration of seeing a problem, doing X to correct it, then causing Z to happen
was driving you bat shit crazy!
Glad you endured the craziness my friend.
 
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