Help with Gears and Lockers

The most cost effective solution:

Put a lunchbox up front and drive it like it is for a while. This will help you figure out how you actually use it and what it still does or does not need. Build it to suit your use after you gain some knowledge. The 3.07 gears are dogs on the street but should not really affect your off-roading needs.

Also if you are going to put the money down for a Dana 44 or even a S35, put a full locker in it. Making those kind of improvements for a LSD is kind of like putting 37 tires and an angry bird grille on to mall crawl…you can do it, just please please don’t.
 
I'd love to hear @starkey480's input. I think he's still running 35s on a super 35 and last I read was keeping up with buggies out in Arizona.
Super 35 kit, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker, and 35” MT/Rs over here running pretty gnarly rock crawling trails for a few years now and love it. Front is a Dana 30 with a spartan lunchbox locker and chromo 27 spline shafts. You get shit from other guys for having a Dana 35 and then you run the same trails as everyone else just fine and they hush up lol
 
You didn't mention what tire size you plan on running, I'm still curious there...

And fair enough - I like messing around with things for nothing else but the sake of messing with things. That said, on a rig that I wheel and would wheel hard enough to warrant such meticulous work, I certainly wouldn't run such a bastardized setup with everything requiring custom parts (like your rear axle shafts for example).

The biggest Dana 44 axle tubes that I know of are the 76-79 HP versions, which come with 3" x 1/2" tube. Every D60KP axle I've ever worked on has a 3.125" x 1/2" tube. Not sure how you're going to make that work but even still, I see no point in spending the time (even with free parts) as GM flattop knuckles and any of the aftermarket versions are plenty strong and have been wheeled heavily on 37" tires with full-sized (read "heavier"!) rigs without much issue. You can gain all of the advantages of losing the axle bearings and getting manual hubs simply by retaining the Dana 44 stuff. You also get notably better brakes that are more easily adapted to work with the TJ's booster and master size. I'm not sure where you're getting bigger u-joints from, as all late model Dana 44's utilize the 297x joint (same as the factory TJ). The Jana 54 kit can be tedious but I have heard nothing but good things and Carl is a good guy.

For the rear axle, I still do not see what advantage the work brings to you. The factory 14B brakes won't work with your factory brake setup without a lot of work. You can of course run aftermarket JB6 or El Dorado calipers but they really offer no advantage in braking over the factory discs, and then you still have to make the e-brakes work with the factory setup. There is no denying the strength of FF 14B axle shafts, but unless you're upgrading the 8.8's carrier to something bigger, you'll never notice the advantage of a full float conversion, particularly in a <4000 lb rig. I believe this is why all the "full foat conversions" of the 90's era died off soon after being released (but perhaps I'm missing something).

Seems like you're trying best to balance clearance and strength, while getting some width (but not necessarily full width). I'm having a hard time seeing how your setup would be advantageous more so than a comparably built D44HP/F8.8 from a full-size Bronco or similar. I mean hell if you already have a D60KP and 14B FF around, you might as well go big or go home - you can easily narrow a Dana 60 to Dana 44 full-size width (65-67" depending) and can use wheels with more BS to bring it even narrower together. You can then shave the 14B as much as you can and run the appropriate hubs/wheel combo to get a width you want.

I have always wanted to narrow a D60HP/60HD combo to ~65.5" (with a 64.5" Dodge rear) and run that with a stretched SWB rig. I was headed that direction with my YJ at the time but ended up getting my old TJ which I ended up liking a lot (A/C is nice in Arizona lol). I still think that a somewhat narrow rig on 37-38" tires with a 101-103" WB would work very well in AZ trails. Now that I'm back in the east coast, I'd be more inclined to just run a set of SD axles full width and go with high BS wheels.
35's maybe 37s
You make some really valid points but 3 inch inner C's for King pin set ups are readily available, I do not want to give up the Ground Clearance for 60/14 bolt. 99.99% of the Jeepers are not hardcore rock crawlers king of the hammers rigs, I want bullet proof axles, I wanna build it because there are 2 schools of thought on Axles. 1 stock or near stock 2 built like a tank why not something in between not every jeeper needs or in my case wants rock crawler 60/14 or 70/14 axles. hell if I wanted that I get some Rockwell 2 to 5 ton top loaders. I want to build something that is still somewhat nimble user friendly and a little lighter weight with out having to add more lift to make up for the loss of ground clearance. Tell a gear head or redneck it can't be done and that shit will get done. You reckon the first guy that said shit I need to take this Air pump ( Supercharger to Gear heads) off this Detroit diesel and put it on my flat head ford or SBC. Someone said why that's not gonna work and next week bubba was at the drag strip kicking everyone's ass and Bam the modern day supercharger was born. Hell I may go down the rabbit hole and piss off a few thousand dollars or I may go down the rabbit hole and come up with something that the average guy can build and improve his ride. Remember there was a first for everything. The first Jeep, the first Lifted Jeep the first Super Swamper Tire, The first transfer case doubler, the first V8 jeep, the first Jeep with AC, The first rockcrawler, the first Air locker, where would jeeps be today without all those firsts? It can't be done is not in my toolbox, and all those firsts we take for granted are because some guy sitting in garage somewhere drinking a beer said damn what if I built this.
 
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35's maybe 37s
You make some really valid points but 3 inch inner C's for King pin set ups are readily available, I do not want to give up the Ground Clearance for 60/14 bolt. 99.99% of the Jeepers are not hardcore rock crawlers king of the hammers rigs, I want bullet proof axles, I wanna build it because there are 2 schools of thought on Axles. 1 stock or near stock 2 built like a tank why not something in between not every jeeper needs or in my case wants rock crawler 60/14 or 70/14 axles. hell if I wanted that I get some Rockwell 2 to 5 ton top loaders. I want to build something that is still somewhat nimble user friendly and a little lighter weight with out having to add more lift to make up for the loss of ground clearance. Tell a gear head or redneck it can't be done and that shit will get done. You reckon the first guy that said shit I need to take this Air pump ( Supercharger to Gear heads) off this Detroit diesel and put it on my flat head ford or SBC. Someone said why that's not gonna work and next week bubba was at the drag strip kicking everyone's ass and Bam the modern day supercharger was born. Hell I may go down the rabbit hole and piss off a few thousand dollars or I may go down the rabbit hole and come up with something that the average guy can build and improve his ride. Remember there was a first for everything. The first Jeep, the first Lifted Jeep the first Super Swamper Tire, The first transfer case doubler, the first V8 jeep, the first Jeep with AC, The first rockcrawler, the first Air locker, where would jeeps be today without all those firsts? It can't be done is not in my toolbox, and all those firsts we take for granted are because some guy sitting in garage somewhere drinking a beer said damn what if I built this.
Well first let me clarify - I did not say it "can't" be done. What you're contemplating is hardly the first time it's been done or attempted. Truthfully, I'm not even questioning the "why", since "for the fuck of it!" is a perfectly acceptable reason to do something, I'm really questioning the value of it all based on your original comments on this thread, where you had issue with a Dana 30/35 combo build due to the "value" not being there ("value" being defined as Cost x Worth).

The spectrum of the schools of thought regarding axle builds is hardly 1<—>2, where #1 is stock and #2 is KOH bouncer strength. Let's expand that out to where #1 is bone stock and #10 is the KOH bouncer, and we can see there are many more nodes along the way. What you're proposing would be maybe a #5.5 or a #6. Is it stronger than a #4 axle build? For sure - but if a built 30/44 combo can bring you to a #5 on the spectrum and you only need a #4.5, where's the value gained, particularly now that are are adding in a $700+ set of inner C's, a few hundred $$$ more in related parts/pieces just to make them work, custom bearings, housing work, etc. I guess I see all the $$$$ and work ahead of you as equivalent to some guy throwing on a set of CM shafts front and rear to run a set of 31" A/T tires at the beach.

I would add too that the amount of ground clearance "lost" from a Dana 44/8.8 on 35"s to a cleaned up Dana 60/60HD combo on +37" tires is about the width of a finger (or maybe two if you have skinny hands.. it's right around 1/2") while being considerably more "bulletproof" all around (recall that your Dana 44 hybrid will still have Dana 44-sized axle shafts).

Don't let me stop you - I'll of course be reading your build thread with much interest b/c I'm a "tinkerer" as much as anyone and doing stuff just to see if you can do it is fun AF :)
 
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Wolf Caves used to be 45 minutes from my house. Its where i started wheelin. There and Hidden Falls. It can get nasty. Wolf Caves is in Mason, TX. Kurt and Camilla Eppler own it. I wish I could go back. I miss it. 35's would help, a little. Hidden Falls is in Marble Falls. It's a great place to wheel too, but i't s mainly limestone and dirt rather than granite.

This image is from Katemcy Rocks which is the adjacent property to Wolf Caves. It's all the same type of terrain.
View attachment 293446

Well lookie what I found on their site.
JMT-wolf-caves.png
 
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Well lookie what I found on their site.
View attachment 293841
The owner, Kurt , took that pic one day as he was driving around in his Jeep showing me some things. Good day. We were close friends and I miss the good times. Very down to earth people. They did peanut farming in previous generations. It wasn’t till one of his sons came home from college with the idea of driving around in the rocks that they started thinking about crawling. Initially Kurt went out and started moving rocks in order to make roadways. When his son found out he said, “Dad, we don’t want roads through here, we want to crawl over the rocks.“ It was a totally new concept for Kurt.

Thanks for sharing the pic. I didn’t know it was on the site.
 
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Here are the numbers I've found. Someone show me cheaper if you know. Remember, my main goal is cost effective solution for 33s. I'm not going to 35s. Based on what I've read I also like the idea of leaving the rear open for now to save money to do the rear like I want. However, I want to change to 456 gears which means I need new carriers. I don't want to buy an open carrier set only to take it out six months later for a trutrac and have to pay to get the axle setup again. I'm definitely in a pickle.

Keep my 35c
$1200- Super 35 kit (includes trutrac carrier and bearings and 1541 shafts)
$150-$200 for R&P
$500 for shop fees

Dana 44 swap
$1200ish for the axle that may or may not come with gears or locker I need
$400 for locker if not included
$150-200 for R&P
$500 for shop fees
What’s the cost of the carrier for your Dana 35? It looks like they’re ~ $150-200. You can buy a Powertrax Grip Pro, which is their version of the TrueTrac, for ~ $350. Like the TrueTrac, there wouldn’t be an issue running it in a Dana 35 with stock shafts because it’s a mechanical limited slip, not a locker. It’s only a little more expensive than an open carrier, but it’s also only $150 less than the TtueTrac. You have to decide where to draw the line in your budget.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been very happy with my Dana 30/35 combo with 4.55s, front ELocker, and rear TrueTrac here in Colorado. But I’m only running 31s.
 
The owner, Kurt , took that pic one day as he was driving around in his Jeep showing me some things. Good day. They were close friends and I miss the good times. Very down to earth people. They did peanut farming in previous generations. It wasn’t till one of his sons came home from college with the idea of driving around in the rocks that they started thinking about crawling. Initially Kurt went out and started moving rocks in order to make roadways. When his son found out he said, “Dad, we don’t want roads through here, we want to crawl over the rocks.“ It was a totally new concept for Kurt.

Thanks for sharing the pic. I didn’t know it was in the site.
Katemcy for you

 
The owner, Kurt , took that pic one day as he was driving around in his Jeep showing me some things. Good day. They were close friends and I miss the good times. Very down to earth people. They did peanut farming in previous generations. It wasn’t till one of his sons came home from college with the idea of driving around in the rocks that they started thinking about crawling. Initially Kurt went out and started moving rocks in order to make roadways. When his son found out he said, “Dad, we don’t want roads through here, we want to crawl over the rocks.“ It was a totally new concept for Kurt.

Thanks for sharing the pic. I didn’t know it was in the site.
You bet. I'm sure its good memories all around especially since your boys and the Jeep have grown up since then.

I found this one a bit later. The wheels gave it away ;) #hotwheels
JMT-wolf-caves2.png
 
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Trying to grasp the concept of all these different options here as noob. I have a Dana 35 LSD rear end and an open front Dana 30, should I go with a True-Track up front or invest in actual lockers. I want to do it right the first time but I'm not sure if I would be able to justify spending that much on my daily driver. I'm also getting the notion that auto lockers are bullet proof but probably wouldn't be great for me because I get a decent amount of snow.

EDIT: I'm also running 33's with what I'm assuming are the stock 3.73 gears if that means anything. Also my engine is the 4.0 and my transmission is the 42RLE 4 speed auto.
 
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Trying to grasp the concept of all these different options here as noob. I have a Dana 35 LSD rear end and an open front Dana 30, should I go with a True-Track up front or invest in actual lockers. I want to do it right the first time but I'm not sure if I would be able to justify spending that much on my daily driver. I'm also getting the notion that auto lockers are bullet proof but probably wouldn't be great for me because I get a decent amount of snow.

EDIT: I'm also running 33's with what I'm assuming are the stock 3.73 gears if that means anything.
Lockers are unstoppable. Power goes to both tires on the locked axle equally.
LSD does do well in snow. If you raise a tire the other tire will lose power.
A front auto locker in snow can be dangerous, unless you know how to drive it and are aware of the quirks (I have one and live in the snow)
Ideally an e-locker or arb would be best up front if you live in snow.

33s and 373 gears doesn’t tell me a lot without telling me your engine and transmission.
 
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Katemcy for you

I wheeled Katemcy once. They had a crawling event that day. Saw some great buggies. I never went back because Wolf Caves is so much better. Katemcy is literally the adjacent property to Wolf Caves. It received a lot of press over the years from Crawl Magazine, et. Al., but Wolf Caves is a much larger property, has more trails for all rig sizes, plenty for everyone, whereas Katemcy is very limited if you have 35’s or under. Here’s a few of my own personal shots from Katemcy and Wolf Caves. Some of the pics give me a chuckle looking back. The last pic for example is very early in my wheelin days. I still had the nerf bars. Needless to say, they got pretty beat up at Wolf Caves. It’s worth a trip if you’re contemplating it. In fact it’s a good area to have TJ Fest bc there’s also Hidden Falls nearby which is very different, but also good. The area is very interesting geologically.

Katemcy
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Wolf Caves
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33s and 373 gears doesn’t tell me a lot without telling me your engine and transmission.
Sorry I forgot to include it but I updated my post. I have the 4.0 with the 42RLE 4 speed auto. I drive a lot of highway so do you recommend even regearing?
 
Sorry I forgot to include it but I updated my post. I have the 4.0 with the 42RLE 4 speed auto. I drive a lot of highway so do you recommend even regearing?
So you're currently running 33"s? Any plan for 35"s?

I think with the 42RLE there is almost zero chance of OVERgearing due to the very (numerically) low 0.69 OD ratio. With 5.13s and 33"s, you're only at ~2700 RPM at 75 MPH.
 
Sorry I forgot to include it but I updated my post. I have the 4.0 with the 42RLE 4 speed auto. I drive a lot of highway so do you recommend even regearing?
Definitely recommend re-gearing. The 0.69 overdrive is a killer. Your 33’s with 373 and the 4.0 is the exact combo my twin sons have on their 04’. They plan to regear to 513.

Regearing for the Highway is one of the most rewarding results of a regear that many do not expect!
 
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So you're currently running 33"s? Any plan for 35"s?
I'm not sure if I will go for the future Super Dana 35 kit and stronger axel shafts up front with 35's because I only have a 3" suspension lift and a 1.25" body lift. I'm worried about clearance issues, kinda kicking myself for not going with the 4" SL and 1.25" BL and SYE and DC path, but that would also be a bit expensive and I'm still running OEM style control arms. Is there a major difference with 35's that makes it worth it? I was pretty surprised with my 33's.
Definitely recommend re-gearing. The 0.69 overdrive is a killer. Your 33’s with 373 and the 4.0 is the exact combo my twin sons have on their 04’. They plan to regear to 513.

Regearing for the Highway is one of the most rewarding results of a regear that many do not expect!
And this is good to hear. Now that I think of it, my Jeep struggles in 4th gear almost anywhere unless it's downhill. Would 513 gears be the fit for me? And also are all of these upgrades something that I can do myself as somewhat of a novice or should I take it to someone who really knows what they are doing?
 
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I'm not sure if I will go for the future Super Dana 35 kit and stronger axel shafts up front with 35's because I only have a 3" suspension lift and a 1.25" body lift. I'm worried about clearance issues, kinda kicking myself for not going with the 4" SL and 1.25" BL and SYE and DC path, but that would also be a bit expensive and I'm still running OEM style control arms. Is there a major difference with 35's that makes it worth it? I was pretty surprised with my 33's.

And this is good to hear. Now that I think of it, my Jeep struggles in 4th gear almost anywhere unless it's downhill. Would 513 gears be the fit for me? And also are all of these upgrades something that I can do myself as somewhat of a novice or should I take it to someone who really knows what they are doing?
I can’t say whether you need 35’s. I stayed on 33’s for a long time and perfected that build. It was very rewarding and capable. Wheeled Moab twice with it and had no trouble on trails like Hells Revenge, Poison Spider, Moab Rim, Elephant Hill, et al. I went to 35’s to stop hitting my control arm brackets and rear bumper as often. Let the Jeep tell you what it needs.

513 is what I would regear too. It’s not something most people do. It’s a long process that requires patience, precision, and perfection. It’s the only thing on my Jeep I had someone else do. If you want a locker, the time to do it is when you regear.
 
I'm not sure if I will go for the future Super Dana 35 kit and stronger axel shafts up front with 35's because I only have a 3" suspension lift and a 1.25" body lift. I'm worried about clearance issues, kinda kicking myself for not going with the 4" SL and 1.25" BL and SYE and DC path, but that would also be a bit expensive and I'm still running OEM style control arms. Is there a major difference with 35's that makes it worth it? I was pretty surprised with my 33's.

And this is good to hear. Now that I think of it, my Jeep struggles in 4th gear almost anywhere unless it's downhill. Would 513 gears be the fit for me? And also are all of these upgrades something that I can do myself as somewhat of a novice or should I take it to someone who really knows what they are doing?
Most of what you have is doable with videos, instructions, patience, and basic tools. I would do everything you can yourself because it's fun and rewarding. The gears are a different story. I'm pretty mechanical inclined and I still pay someone for axle work. The most I'll do is drop in lockers or pinion gears. If I have to setup a ring and pinion, that's where I pay someone.
 
I'm excited to say I have the budget to make this happen now. However, I'm running into some road blocks. See below build list and questions/concerns.

Front locker
Torq locker (already own)
Yukon 3.54 and up carrier - available on Amazon for $80.

Rear Locker
Eaton 27 spline Trutrac 912A569 - available on Amazon for $532. Seems to be the cheapest and readily available but everything else seems out of stock.

Rear Axles
Since I'm keeping my spline count the same I don't have to have these to complete this process but would like to do it to get stronger axles and gain a spare set in the process. 1541H axles seem to be impossible to find in stock. Suggestions?

4.56 master kit
I was seeking the Yukon master kit but it's out everywhere. Anyone know of a comparable quality/price kit that is in stock?