Yes, still another death wobble question

I have a 'cut and paste' for you from the install manual for my lift that I put on a few months back, I never had the issue, but I hope something in there helps...

Problem: You experience “High Speed Wobble” after hitting bump at 35-40mph.
Possible Solution: “Death wobble” is usually a combination of items and typically there is not one easy fix. We recommend you follow these steps when trying to identify source. Start by looking for any loose movement in the steering. Watch the tie-rod ends where they connect to the steering knuckle arms. Watch the drag link and the ends. Watch the track bar—it should remain tight without side to side movement when dry turning. Check to make sure your wheel bearing are in good condition by jacking up Jeep and grabbing top of the wheel and try to rock it back and forth. Make sure your tires are balanced—we recommend they be “road force” balanced. Is your front end in alignment? Lack of proper caster angles may be the problem. Last but not least is the steering stabilizer. A new stabilizer will not fix the problem, but a worn out one will make the situation worse. Most aftermarket stabilizers significantly dampen the movement that is the precursor to death wobble—control this and the severity is limited.
 
Can you replicate the deathwobble under the same circumstances? For instance,
A pothole hit on the drivers side causes deathwobble. A pothole hit on the passengers side does not. That would tell me there is a bad tierod end on the drivers side, or where the tierod attaches to the draglink. it could also indicate a bad ballpoint on the drivers side. (Ask me how I know) a dry steer test will not always reveal a bad tie rod end. And a bad ball joint will not always be evident by just trying to move around the tire. Do you tires show signs of cupping? If so that's also a sign of worn steering parts.
 
I spent the last 6 months fighting death wobble( jeep is not a daily driver so it was put on the back burner in favor of other projects) I ended up with a bad lower ball joint, and a shot tie rod end on my currie steering. The steering is a few years old but has only 10-15k miles on it.
 
If after checking all areas and you still can't come with something then you may have to look in areas that aren't obvious at all. My son's 2003 TJ Rubicon always had death wobble to some extent even after replacing everything at least once. Tried everything we could think of. He settled in to DW just being a trait of the TJ. About 4 months ago while doing Cleghorn on a simple downward off-chute his trackbar mount at the frame tore completely off, ripping a large hole in the frame. We patched him enough to get back to the road in order to get it towed. Couldn't steer at all. While looking at the torn out mount later on we found that some of the cracked area was not new. He had been dealing with a crack in the frame around the mount since he got his Jeep. The mount had been flexing away from the frame. It was confirmed after plugging up the frame then welding on a beefier trackbar mount. The TJ now rides the way it should have with no death wobble issues at all. The scary thing is the mount could have failed at any time before then even on mountain roads.

I would have someone check around the mount. I replaced my mount as part of my build before my son tore his out. The stock mount doesn't encompass enough of the frame to prevent this from occurring IMO.
 
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I would have someone check around the mount. I replaced my mount as part of my build before my son tore his out. The stock mount doesn't encompass enough of the frame to prevent this from occurring IMO.
You are welcome to that opinion however flawed it may be. There are 100's of 1000's of examples to the contrary for that to be a thing at all. Also, that was not a contributing factor to the DW. The continual instances of DW are what damaged the frame mount. If the mount was responsible, it would have ripped out much sooner since DW is so violent. That fact that it stayed in as long as it did tells you that wasn't the issue.

As I have to every time that mount is blamed, I work on TJ's and TJ Unlimited models all the time. If there were a deficiency with that frame mount that needed to be corrected, I would have long ago designed, developed and would sell a product to solve the problem.

Generally there is an underlying issue that caused the damage like continual bump steer which works the front steering and trackbar far harder than necessary every time the suspension cycles. That and the worst, absolute worst thing you can do is keep driving it with DW. That just destroys stuff faster than you can replace it.
 
If the mount was responsible, it would have ripped out much sooner since DW is so violent.
I would agree with you except that you don't know what was done to the jeep before it was purchased as well as death wobble can be severe or not. Not every situation is the same as you know. In my son's case it was the issue. I still stand behind my statement that I don't believe the stock trackbar mounts wrap the frame enough especially when we put the pressures we do on them.
 
I would agree with you except that you don't know what was done to the jeep before it was purchased as well as death wobble can be severe or not. Not every situation is the same as you know. In my son's case it was the issue. I still stand behind my statement that I don't believe the stock trackbar mounts wrap the frame enough especially when we put the pressures we do on them.
It is easy to stand behind something when you have a very high statistical average or 50%. It is much harder when that average drops to below .001%.

But, you don't have to take my word for it, start a thread with the title- How many TJ owners have had the frame side front trackbar mount rip off the frame versus how many haven't?

Care to make a little wager on the result? Let's keep it small. I'll give you a dime for everyone that has ripped out of the frame, you give me a nickel for everyone still intact. I'll start off the replies by taking pics of the 6 in my driveway intact versus your 1. I'll be up 20 cents in the first post.
 
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It is easy to stand behind something when you have a very high statistical average or 50%. It is much harder when that average drops to below .001%.

But, you don't have to take my word for it, start a thread with the title- How many TJ owners have had the frame side front trackbar mount rip off the frame versus how many haven't?

Care to make a little wager on the result? Let's keep it small. I'll give you a dime for everyone that has ripped out of the frame, you give me a nickel for everyone still intact. I'll start off the replies by taking pics of the 6 in my driveway intact versus your 1. I'll be up 20 cents in the first post.
It's very interesting the way you approached my post earlier. You turned something that did happen into something that doesn't happen. You seem to stay that statistically what I'm staying doesn't happen and I'm telling you it has. I also stated that after checking everything for signs of death wobble you should check in other areas that could be causing the issue. This is when I said what I experienced. Out of 2 TJ's in my family, both 03 Rubicons, one had a frame side mount get torn out while on a trail. So, in my personal experience that's 50%. Did I state anywhere that all or most will have this issue? I merely stated that I don't believe they wrap the frame enough so you should check it. Can you tell me where in this conversation does my opinion become flawed? Is that because you personally don't agree with it?
 
Well, I took it out of storage, bought 4 new 265/70r16 toyo at's. On my last alignment, the RF camber was at -7/8, which is at the maximum end of the spec. I like to have things a bit more in the middle, if possible, so I put in an offset upper ball joint to change some more toward the middle. I also changed the lower BJ, axle joint and wheel bearing on that side while I had it apart. I mounted the tires myself, and kept rotating them around on the rim, then putting them on the balancer, until I got the least amount of weights needed. This took about a half hour per tire, but made quite a difference. I never added weights, then I took them to be Road Forced. The tire tech said they balanced very well, with minimal weight needed. This is a shop we regularly use, and do a good job, usually. I will be taking it on a trip this coming weekend, maybe I'll have an answer then. Fingers crossed.
 
Well it's been a couple of years now, I don't drive it very often, and I wanted to make sure it was gone for good, before I posted this. After everything I replaced, and adjusted, it was much better, but would still go into the DW every once and a while, usually after hitting the right sized bump with the RF tire. I did some reading on Kevin's Off Road website, and began to look into the whole trackbar issue. My TJ was about 1 1/4" offset to one side. I installed Kevin's DW kit, 2 JKS adjustable trackbars, centered the chassis, and it has never had a DW again. I even looked for the kind of bump that would set it off before, and hit it to verify my repair. I also realize that each TJ will have it's own reasons for the DW, but after everything I did, this is what actually fixed it. Thank you all for your help with this, as I know you must be tired of hearing about all of the DW complaints. I hope this helps somebody else.
 
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Not just install. Every and I mean every wheel is slightly out of balance. It's the nature of the manufacturing process. Some are worse than others. And some are just crap. Unless you are building for world records on the salt flats or NASA the balance of the rim is never spot on. And on a solid axle it seems everything needs to be in good shape. I've seen IFS with rod ends so loose you could use them as maracas. Yet no sign of a vibe at all. So let's just agree to disagree and not have this same argument every time there is a post about a vibe that can't be fixed. I'm not the only one who knows the difference between the two types of rims. I would suspect 90+% of folks have no idea the two exist. I don't know why you need to try and shout down information you don't happen to agree with. Really. I just don't get it. If I am wrong about something I'm more than w9to admit it. Nobody knows everything. Nobody. And I have had repeatedly seen them cure a vibe that nothing else could. You haven't. Dosen't make my experience less true.
i have no dog in this fight and i’m no rocket scientist but, a smart one would hand tighten all lugs before using an impact on them. a smarter one would always hand tighten with a 4-way and then torque to spec with said lug centric wheel being perfectly centered on the hub. just my two cents.
 
i have no dog in this fight and i’m no rocket scientist but, a smart one would hand tighten all lugs before using an impact on them. a smarter one would always hand tighten with a 4-way and then torque to spec with said lug centric wheel being perfectly centered on the hub. just my two cents.
The lugs are tapered so they self center a non-hub-centric aftermarket wheel. That said, I have a weak cordless impact that takes them to about 60 ft/lbs. I finish off to 95 ft/lbs by hand with a torque wrench.
 
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The lugs are tapered so they self center a non-hub-centric aftermarket wheel. That said, I have a weak cordless impact that takes them to about 60 ft/lbs. I finish off to 95 ft/lbs by hand with a torque wrench.
i can see running the lugs extremely tight with a impact could cause problems with getting lug centric wheels on and centered correctly. most tire shops in my area run to high air pressure for their impacts. to the extent of ruining lug studs. getting all lugs snug by hand should help avoid this problem.
 
i can see running the lugs extremely tight with a impact could cause problems with getting lug centric wheels on and centered correctly. most tire shops in my area run to high air pressure for their impacts. to the extent of ruining lug studs. getting all lugs snug by hand should help avoid this problem.
I agree that shops tend to over-torque which can stretch the threads. I always specify 90-95ft/lbs and I over-emphasize it till they get how anal I am about it. I’ve had them refuse till I called for the manager. He checked and said 85-115is spec and affirmed my request.

You would probably know if the lugs were off center for some reason. I usually see when they all come into center as you follow the star pattern. That taper on the lug nut won’t typically hold an off-center position when another lug nut moves into center. One last torque check and everything will be in place.
 
I agree that shops tend to over-torque which can stretch the threads. I always specify 90-95ft/lbs and I over-emphasize it till they get how anal I am about it. I’ve had them refuse till I called for the manager. He checked and said 85-115is spec and affirmed my request.

You would probably know if the lugs were off center for some reason. I usually see when they all come into center as you follow the star pattern. That taper on the lug nut won’t typically hold an off-center position when another lug nut moves into center. One last torque check and everything will be in place.
have taken stripped lug studs and a receipt for them to the tire shop and told owner the amount on receipt is what he owes me. he paid me for the studs but grumbled that i should have let them replace them. did them myself, didn’t want to give them the opportunity to ruin them again. no tires purchased from that establishment again. don’t trust our local walmart but, at least they torque them to spec.
 
I agree that it is not 100% tires/wheels that cause DW. Our TJ was purchased new by us in 2005, so we know it's history.

Jeep started bump induced DW back in 2008. Tires and wheels were swapped out from the factory steel wheels and tires with factory Ravines and 31's in 2010, but the DW remained. I was under Jeep looking for possible causes, and discovered the front right shock was leaking, replaced all the shocks, and the DW has gone away to this day. That shock had zero resistance in it, and I could extend and collapse it in my hands very quickly, and it would stay collapsed and never extend on it's own.

Another way to check the steering components, when you are by yourself, is put the drivers front up on a ramp, and with engine running turn the wheel back and forth just to the point the tire starts to move, and line the front end up with an object at a distance... front end should not move until the tires move.
 
Sure can buddy. I'll explain it again for ya.
Put the rim and tire (let's just call it 'wheel' onto the lug studs. Then let's hit that first lug nut with the impact wrench to mount the wheel good and tight. Gotta make sure it doesn't move, right.
So now that wheel is centered on that lug. Right? Not centered on the hub, but centered on that lug.

Goatman and Jerry,

I've read your discussions here regarding lug centric wheels a number of times. It doesn't seem like either one of you is making any progress convincing the other who is right. :) I happen to think that both of you are right. Jerry says that there are thousands of lug centric wheels in use that have never caused any problems. This is true. Goatman says that sometimes death wobble comes down to a lug centric wheel not being centered on the hub causing death wobble. This is also true, and I have experienced it.

My Jeep drove OK (with worn mud terrain tires on it) when I bought it. I soon changed to all terrain tires and I didn't have any death wobble, but the Jeep felt loose on the road, and I thought that the bushings on the Skyjacker lift kit were worn. I changed the bushings and the result was death wobble. It took a while to straighten my Jeep out and I ended up having to get expert help. I believe that I caused the death wobble because I removed and replaced the control arms one at a time, most importantly I tightened each control arm as I finished re-installing it, instead of putting them all on loose, bouncing the suspension a couple of times, and then tightening the arms. I also believe my "expert" probably centered my wheels when he installed them, after checking the balance. Maybe loosening and retorquing the suspension components was incidental to correcting the death wobble. I am not sure. I say this because the next time I rotated the tires, the death wobble came back. This time, I tried to fix the death wobble myself by installing high quality parts ($$). I succeeded in stopping the death wobble, but I still had a little shake. I took my Jeep to an old fashioned (in business for 60 years) front end/tire shop to have the tires balanced while on the Jeep, and the tires trued if needed (I felt like one of them was out of round). The tech there (son of the founder) showed me that one wheel was mounted off center. After the one wheel was remounted, my Jeep drove great. It took me a little internet research to learn that there was actually a recommended procedure to mount lug centric wheels, but once I learned the procedure, life was good for a couple of years. Recently, I got a new set of tires. I talked to the tech in the tire shop about how to put the wheels on, and I watched him install them. Leaving the shop, everything felt good, but I didn't do a through road test. It was a couple of weeks before I drove my Jeep on the interstate and felt a little shake in the 55-58mph range. I came home, loosened all the lug nuts, re-centered the wheels, and went out for a test drive. Damn, still wobbling. I wondered about the balance, but decided to try one more thing at home before going back to the tire shop. I have a set of adapters for my American Racing wheels that match the Jeep hub (71.5mm-81mm). I did not have them installed because they do not work with my push through hub center caps. I took the wheels off, removed the hub center caps, installed the adapters to make the wheels hub centric, and re-installed the wheels. Voila! It is good! No shake. My conclusion (you were hoping I would get there, right?) is that I have one wheel that will not center with the lug nuts. I expect that this wheel was in the "spare" position until I bought new tires. Rotating my best old tire to the spare, and the the wheel that was in the spare position to the road (with a new tire) brought back some of my problems. I am not sure which of the 2 front wheels is at fault, but I plan to give them a good inspection the next time I have a reason to remove them. I will not be surprised to find that one or more of the holes for the wheel lugs are in some way damaged.