EV thread
- Thread starter Apparition
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TKFX
Member
You guys can discuss big bad government all you want, but there is one thing that is really clear. Right now, almost every car company is investing billions of dollars into EV development. Jeep just announced their aggressive EV onboarding for the next few decades. This wouldn't be happening if EVs were clearly not better than ICE. If ICE was better than EVs, you can bet that the collective lobbying power of the automotive industry would have killed EVs. There are teams of people smarter than everyone in this thread whos sole job was to figure out the ICE vs EV topic. You can guess which one came out on top.
Someone on here saying solar panels are $10/W... here you go https://www.solarelectricsupply.com/residential-solar-system-cost
Someone on here saying they did the math on batteries not lasting long enough.... This is also on CURRENT technology.
California is banning the SALE of NEW ICE vehicle in 2035. You guys are all discussing like they are banning them on the road...
All I see in this thread is a bunch of people discussing EVs with anecdotal evidence and ignorance. Any type of interesting discussion on a this topic has turned into a cesspool of opinionated right vs left and government bashing. Maybe I should have expected that with the OP starting off with that shit article. If you are going to make a non personal claim, back it up or shut up.
Someone on here saying solar panels are $10/W... here you go https://www.solarelectricsupply.com/residential-solar-system-cost
Someone on here saying they did the math on batteries not lasting long enough.... This is also on CURRENT technology.
California is banning the SALE of NEW ICE vehicle in 2035. You guys are all discussing like they are banning them on the road...
All I see in this thread is a bunch of people discussing EVs with anecdotal evidence and ignorance. Any type of interesting discussion on a this topic has turned into a cesspool of opinionated right vs left and government bashing. Maybe I should have expected that with the OP starting off with that shit article. If you are going to make a non personal claim, back it up or shut up.
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OP
Not a bad point, but THE GOV IS MANDATING KILLING ICE. These decisions aren't being made by the market or engineers, but by Politicians hence the political talk. The OEMs want to sell overpriced equipment that only they can work on. It's a HUGE win for manufacturers because they can turn this into a service that must repeat.
Also solar panels aren't that expensive, but storage is incredibly expensive right now, which is the reasoning that it's so incredibly expensive for power grids to utilize unreliable power generation. I have some solar and almost the entire energy produced by my utility provider is natural gas and THEY NEVER ASK ME TO RESTRICT POWER CONSUMPTION and my prices are about $.1/KWH.
TKFX
Member
Do you really think they are doing this with ZERO input from engineers/scientists? The state (California is what I can speak for) and federal government have engineers and scientists on staff to look at these things.
Also let me note that my 3/4 ton truck which has 330k miles on it NOT KM, that engine is running perfectly and there's NO EV on the market that has the range and the towing capacity. I totally want an EV, but the cost is TOO HIGH right now and there's too much changing so I'm hanging out and letting everyone else beta test these until something reasonable hits the market.
It's a decision that's not based in science to not have an ICE onboard to top off the battery bank. I'm an engineer I have worked in energy generation and we looked at many types. EV isn't new. The grid can't support mass EV adoption YET. It's incredibly promising and will have roles, but to ban the ICE when there aren't models that work for a massive amount of the market is simply a JOKE.
Don't forget people more intelligent have been in charge of some of the DUMBEST decisions in history. I think back to Vietnam where the brilliant McNamara led a strategy in Vietnam that was based on body count and it was a disaster that killed thousands of brave Americans and our allies.
Yes I do. They don't even know that it gets hot in summer and weren't prepared for a typical heat wave and have to force the citizens in CA to reduce power right as they are mandating that the grid will need exponentially provide more power in the coming years.
TKFX
Member
CA has been asking its citizens to do that every summer... the only difference is that it makes a headline because of the EV buzz lately which you guys eat up, nothing has changed in that front.
Your point would make sense if it was a mass adoption happening tomorrow. This is going to be happening in 12 years... everyone gets a head start which means if the grid cant handle it by then... then the energy companies did nothing to prepare. EV trucks using current tech have only been on the production market for like 1 years.... obviously we don't have models now that the market wants... but in 12 years..... the automotive industry has JUST starting its money printer towards EVs.
You obviously know little about electrical generation, the industry, federal, state, and local regulations, project development, or costs. You make it sound like 12 years is a long time.
It took us 10 years of trying just to have California deny us a permit to build 2 miles of transmission line to connect our plant directly to a line feeding LA.
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I stand by my estimate of a minimum $7 Trillion in new generation required before we even get to transmission upgrades and home upgrades for charging.
That's based on 30 years in the industry building plants and selling power. The last gas plant we built took 5 years to get the site, build a gas pipeline, and build the plant. After obtaining $1 billion in financing.
That's based on 30 years in the industry building plants and selling power. The last gas plant we built took 5 years to get the site, build a gas pipeline, and build the plant. After obtaining $1 billion in financing.
I get that but this is still political science. In the south it's always hot during the summer and we just turn down the thermostat. When we get the occasional snow it's an apocalypse every single year and we get stranded on highways and stuff. Even when I was in some really poor places in India, they didn't have the power outages. It was so hot there that you'd feel cold if it was 80F, but they had power or people died.
They could easily offer trucks that would be amazing and if they'd allow an on board generator, preferably diesel I could have a vehicle that was absolutely amazing. It's the sweeping politics that won't allow this and why we have some of the worst utility vehicles in the world for the highest price. If I had (4) 300 hp motors with INSTANT torque at each wheel and ~60 mile plug in range and then a tiny dedicated engine on board so I could make that 500 mi range, it would be awesome, which is my problem with these mandates. We have the tools to make awesome stuff, but instead we're using political science to make relatively impractical vehicles.
They could easily offer trucks that would be amazing and if they'd allow an on board generator, preferably diesel I could have a vehicle that was absolutely amazing. It's the sweeping politics that won't allow this and why we have some of the worst utility vehicles in the world for the highest price. If I had (4) 300 hp motors with INSTANT torque at each wheel and ~60 mile plug in range and then a tiny dedicated engine on board so I could make that 500 mi range, it would be awesome, which is my problem with these mandates. We have the tools to make awesome stuff, but instead we're using political science to make relatively impractical vehicles.
OP
To do this they really need nuclear. If they wanted to build a new plant how many years would it take to get one up and running? I don't see it less than 12 years.
Honestly the range anxiety and people thinking Teslas are going to die in traffic running the AC is hilarious. My Tesla gets the same range as an ICE does on a single tank (370 miles). I know folks that drive around days with the gas light on and don’t think twice about it but a 370 mile range battery that gets charged every night is too scawwwy. At what point are y’all being just being technology averse old farts with an aversion to change?
My other issue that let CA do CA, but I want KY to do KY and feds are watching repeat failures in CA and pushing around the nation. If the market doesn't choose it then the product isn't good enough, don't force it on everyone please. I'll probably adopt some stuff once there's several years of beta testing and I'm all for it.
I can produce a huge amount of energy from the farm to charge whatever I want, so I'm excited, but I want a good product not something designed by political science.
No.
My company is developing wind and solar projects as fast as we can. The more electricity people buy, the more we make. The more renewables they want, the more we make.
I understand the technology, the marketplace, the costs, the limitations, .....
It will take more time and money than the arbitrary government timelines. Electricity will cost more and be less reliable. There aren't enough battery materials on earth to make it happen in the time frame.
In the mean time, my company will absorb the tax credits to offset the taxes in our $8.5 billion in yearly revenue. Not bad for a company with 700 employees.
This stuff is a cash cow of epic proportions, pulling money out of the population by destroying the cheap energy and diverting public money to energy companies.
Exxon, BP, etc are renewable energy companies just like GM and Ford are EV companies.
It's not about technology, it's about money and being on the right side of the handouts. We save $250-300 million a year in taxes, giving people exactly what they ask for, expensive and unreliable electricity.
The more governments regulate and mandate, the more money companies can make. That's what Musk is using to fund his space exploration.
Nukes are where it's at. Reliable and clean. Stupid hippies threw a fit and stopped truly green power from being implemented. At some point someone needs to pull up the big boy pants and address reality.
The government and economics side of the argument is understandable. I’m talking purely about the real world functionality and the guys that are afraid of batteries dying. EVs serve a purpose and serve it well. They do not serve every purpose and the government certainly has the ability to fuck things up.
How do you get recharged on the highway if you do get stuck in traffic and the vehicle dies? Serious question. Can you all be physically towed in a way that will actually recharge the batteries?
My Jeep, truck and car will get 400 or more miles per tank easy and I can extend that very easily with a $20 fuel container and there's a BUNCH of gas stations. I have little need for a car though I do have 1, but the towing range on the trucks which aren't big enough to tow what I need are almost in double digits. I could very easily run out of range in an EV truck just towing to and from my farm, let alone the boat to various lakes or somewhere with the camper, especially in the cold and that's simply not acceptable.
Again I want to get an EV, but why won't they add a freaking dedicated generator until the grid is and infrastructure is there for everyone else that isn't just for commuting? I don't want to wait for some unicorn battery, we've got wonderfully reliable and efficient generators, let's use all tech to get awesome stuff and stop basing this on political science, especially if politicians are wanting mass adoption. I'm begging the politicians to stop hamstringing EVs, but this is nonsense to be so focused on a fairly small market share.
OP
I would love an ev for a commuter vehicle. But can’t justify another vehicle in the fleet.
I wouldn’t be bothered with range anxiety but the recharge time would annoy me on a trip.
We routinely drive straight through to wherever we go, 17-24 hour drives isn’t uncommon. But I have better vehicles for that anyway. Adding another 3-4 hours would suck.
OP
Around here I’ve seen Ford Superduty’s labeled Tesla picking them up with a trailer. You can’t tow them or generate enough energy to make it make sense