I have hubcentric rims that don't require hubcentric rings and i am experiencing a shake/vibration that starts at various speeds, depending on where wheels are mounted.
Best case scenario it begins at 65 mph and does not go way with higher speeds.
Worst case it begins at around 55 mph and does not go away.
After trying different thing i have a suspicion that my rims are not centered on the hubs and that is what causing wheel bounce. Below is my reasoning and i would like to see what you all think on this.
Balancing:
Rims and tires were purchased at the same time, currently have roughly 7000 miles on them.
Tires have been rebalanced 10 times at 6 different tire shops. Various methods have been tried: statically, dynamically, road force, clip on weight, sticky weight, combination of both. Tires have been rotated on the rim to take the least amount of weight, and as much as it ask for. Results were a hit or miss, either there was no change, or ride has gotten worse.
Alternative balancing methods have been tried, Centramatic balancing disks and tire beads. Both were tried with and without wheel weights.
Tire beads was a complete fail, it was like driving on
instead of round wheels .
Centramatics were also problematic, and they always set off a brake light on the dash. i have tried them 1 wheel at a time, front or rear only, all 4 wheels - same result.
Rotations:
Through various wheel rotations i was able to identify where each wheel prefers to be mounted.
1 wheel is problematic no matter where it is mounted, so it stays as a spare.
2 wheels that always cause issue when mounted in the front, so they stay in the back.
2 wheels that are okay being mounted front or rear, and with them in the front is the best ride i get.
While experimenting with rotations, i have noticed interesting phenomenon, there were a few short instances after removing and mounting the wheels, when Jeep rode smooth shake-free and then within a few moments the smooth ride would progressively deteriorate into a shake.
Torquing lug nuts:
To torque lug nuts, I use a star method and incrementally increase torque on lug nuts until they reach 100 ft/lb. To reach final torque, i lower wheels on the ground just enough to keep them from spinning. One time i have torqued them with wheels in the air (did not lower to keep from spinning) and doing so had a positive effect on the smoothness of the ride. To make sure i was not delusional, I have tried retorquing lug nuts on all wheels with wheels on the ground and wheels in the air, and doing so has always had effect on smoothness of the ride.
After driving for a few miles, i retorque lug nuts. When doing so i notice that 4 out of 5 lug nuts loosen up (but still tight), and 1 stays torqued at 100 ft/lt. I have noticed the same when taking wheels off, there is always only 1 nut that triggers click on torque wrench, and other 4 require less force to unscrew.
What else has been done:
Rotors replaced, hubs replaced, ball joints replaced, new driveshafts (as well as removing one at a time), control arm bushings are new. Alignments done and rechecked at 3 different shops. I have also messed with toe in and that had no effect.
Measurements:
So far (other than driveshafts and alignment) everything that has been done have one thing in common - wheels had to be taken off and mounted back on.
So what are the odds that a rim never mounts back on in a consistent manner?
Since this are hubcentric rims, i have decided to take measurements of the center bores. To my understanding, hubcentric rim should have a snug fit against the hub, otherwise how else will they center around the hub?
Internet says Jeep hub diameter measures at 71.5mm. Aftermarket hubs like Timken and Moog claim to be 71.4mm and that is what mine measured at.
To measure center bore i had to use a little improvisations with snap ring pliers due to not having a proper tool, but i took multiple measurements and was careful not to deviate results. Largest measurement i recorded was 71.9mm. I have also set pliers at 71.5mm and they were loose inside the center bore and made no contact with the walls.
When taking measurements i have noticed that center bores have paint wear in specifically one spot.
That tells me that only that spot is in contact with a hub, and rest is offset.
Furthermore, if a rim is snug fit to a hub, a hub should be a single pivot point, there should be no excessive movement (tolerances) other than a rotation movement of the rim on the hub. So if i tighten 1 lug nut, all the movement of the rim around the hub should seize?
Well, when i tighten 1 lug nut, that lug becomes a pivot point and i can feel rim going up and down on the hub, in my opinion more than it reasonably should be.
Me thinking:
-Centramatic balancers go in between a rotor and a rim, they push a rim out a little and fill in that gap, like a spacer. So if the rim is already not sitting properly, wouldn't that explain why this balancers make it worse?
-If lowering the wheel on the ground to prevent it from spinning in order to torque the lug nuts, causes shaking to be worse, does it mean that the weight of the vehicle has effect on how rim sits on the hub?
-If for a brief moment i am experiencing a perfect smooth ride that progressively deteriorates into shaking, isn't that an indicator that a rim is shifting on the hub?
-If 4 out of 5 lug nuts attempting to loosen up, isn't that an indicator that a wheel is trying to shift?
-How tight should a hubcentric rim sit on a hub? The ones i have seen (other than OEM) use rings to fill in the gap, and they sit snugly.
Best case scenario it begins at 65 mph and does not go way with higher speeds.
Worst case it begins at around 55 mph and does not go away.
After trying different thing i have a suspicion that my rims are not centered on the hubs and that is what causing wheel bounce. Below is my reasoning and i would like to see what you all think on this.
Balancing:
Rims and tires were purchased at the same time, currently have roughly 7000 miles on them.
Tires have been rebalanced 10 times at 6 different tire shops. Various methods have been tried: statically, dynamically, road force, clip on weight, sticky weight, combination of both. Tires have been rotated on the rim to take the least amount of weight, and as much as it ask for. Results were a hit or miss, either there was no change, or ride has gotten worse.
Alternative balancing methods have been tried, Centramatic balancing disks and tire beads. Both were tried with and without wheel weights.
Tire beads was a complete fail, it was like driving on
instead of round wheels .Centramatics were also problematic, and they always set off a brake light on the dash. i have tried them 1 wheel at a time, front or rear only, all 4 wheels - same result.
Rotations:
Through various wheel rotations i was able to identify where each wheel prefers to be mounted.
1 wheel is problematic no matter where it is mounted, so it stays as a spare.
2 wheels that always cause issue when mounted in the front, so they stay in the back.
2 wheels that are okay being mounted front or rear, and with them in the front is the best ride i get.
While experimenting with rotations, i have noticed interesting phenomenon, there were a few short instances after removing and mounting the wheels, when Jeep rode smooth shake-free and then within a few moments the smooth ride would progressively deteriorate into a shake.
Torquing lug nuts:
To torque lug nuts, I use a star method and incrementally increase torque on lug nuts until they reach 100 ft/lb. To reach final torque, i lower wheels on the ground just enough to keep them from spinning. One time i have torqued them with wheels in the air (did not lower to keep from spinning) and doing so had a positive effect on the smoothness of the ride. To make sure i was not delusional, I have tried retorquing lug nuts on all wheels with wheels on the ground and wheels in the air, and doing so has always had effect on smoothness of the ride.
After driving for a few miles, i retorque lug nuts. When doing so i notice that 4 out of 5 lug nuts loosen up (but still tight), and 1 stays torqued at 100 ft/lt. I have noticed the same when taking wheels off, there is always only 1 nut that triggers click on torque wrench, and other 4 require less force to unscrew.
What else has been done:
Rotors replaced, hubs replaced, ball joints replaced, new driveshafts (as well as removing one at a time), control arm bushings are new. Alignments done and rechecked at 3 different shops. I have also messed with toe in and that had no effect.
Measurements:
So far (other than driveshafts and alignment) everything that has been done have one thing in common - wheels had to be taken off and mounted back on.
So what are the odds that a rim never mounts back on in a consistent manner?
Since this are hubcentric rims, i have decided to take measurements of the center bores. To my understanding, hubcentric rim should have a snug fit against the hub, otherwise how else will they center around the hub?
Internet says Jeep hub diameter measures at 71.5mm. Aftermarket hubs like Timken and Moog claim to be 71.4mm and that is what mine measured at.
To measure center bore i had to use a little improvisations with snap ring pliers due to not having a proper tool, but i took multiple measurements and was careful not to deviate results. Largest measurement i recorded was 71.9mm. I have also set pliers at 71.5mm and they were loose inside the center bore and made no contact with the walls.
When taking measurements i have noticed that center bores have paint wear in specifically one spot.
That tells me that only that spot is in contact with a hub, and rest is offset.
Furthermore, if a rim is snug fit to a hub, a hub should be a single pivot point, there should be no excessive movement (tolerances) other than a rotation movement of the rim on the hub. So if i tighten 1 lug nut, all the movement of the rim around the hub should seize?
Well, when i tighten 1 lug nut, that lug becomes a pivot point and i can feel rim going up and down on the hub, in my opinion more than it reasonably should be.
Me thinking:
-Centramatic balancers go in between a rotor and a rim, they push a rim out a little and fill in that gap, like a spacer. So if the rim is already not sitting properly, wouldn't that explain why this balancers make it worse?
-If lowering the wheel on the ground to prevent it from spinning in order to torque the lug nuts, causes shaking to be worse, does it mean that the weight of the vehicle has effect on how rim sits on the hub?
-If for a brief moment i am experiencing a perfect smooth ride that progressively deteriorates into shaking, isn't that an indicator that a rim is shifting on the hub?
-If 4 out of 5 lug nuts attempting to loosen up, isn't that an indicator that a wheel is trying to shift?
-How tight should a hubcentric rim sit on a hub? The ones i have seen (other than OEM) use rings to fill in the gap, and they sit snugly.
