High Praise For MetalCloak's Duroflex Double Adjustable Control Arms

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Just a comment or two on MC's control arm bushings. First, MC's Duroflex bushing material used in their control arms is essentially rubber. No matter what their well-known wild marketing says, that's all it essentially is. Nothing more, nothing less. There are many control arms that use rubber for their bushings including the factory control arms.

They provide no better isolation from vibration or shock than any other rubber bushing does. MC's Duroflex-based flex joints provide more flex than some other rubber bushings do but at the cost of reduced life. They don't hold up as well as other better designs do. That's becoming well known as those using MC's control arms are reporting that now. Often to be shouted down by some who don't believe MC's bushings could possibly have any problems but it's true... they have been out long enough where many MC control arm users are having to replace them.

And the claimed benefit of a better ride from MC's arms is, really, pure and simple bullshit. But due to the placebo effect, many install MC arms and OMG jump on the bandwagon of claims of cloud-like rides. Pure placebo effect in high gear. The truth is that control arms, by themselves, have very little to no effect on ride quality. Those who claim they do only do so from the placebo effect.

You can have equally an equally outstanding ride with those that don't use rubber bushings (sorry I meant to say Duroflex lol) in their control arms. Really. It's those who are new to the Jeep game who swallow the better ride marketing hype hook, line, and sinker. Control arms have little control over the actual ride quality in reality. You can have a really shitty stiff ride with MC control arms with the wrong (too stiff) shock absorbers and appropriate springs just like you can have an outstanding ride with non-MC arms with the right shock absorbers and appropriate springs.

In other words, don't give your MC arms total credit for the ride you're enjoying. The arms just don't have that much control over the ride. Which is why you're receiving a lot of grief here from the many who know better than to give control arms that much credit.

Personally I'm not using MC control arms yet I have a superb ride in my own TJ with its 4" lift with Johnny Joint control arms which use a polyurethane bushing that has no give. I simply have good riding shocks together with my 4" springs that give that good ride. Not to mention my Johnny Joints are 14 years old and still holding up perfectly well with little maintenance and no rebuilds. My Lexus-driving wife even commented once on a long drive out to the desert in my TJ how good of a ride my TJ had. Imagine that, especially since I'm not using MC control arms.
 
How about just fucking no? I've battered my head on that wall until I'm more senseless than usual. I've been in enough battles over shocks and suspension to avoid them for the most part because they are all boringly repetitious with no to little change to the overall mentality and knowledge base.

This thread is the absolute perfect example of how that goes every single fucking time and has gone every single fucking time for the last 15 years, 13 of which I've been paying for and adjusting the tunes on shocks for the TJ.

It doesn't matter how many times you explain that control arm joints have little to zero effect on ride quality, we still can't change what folks want to believe. We can't change that not only do you not fix ride quality with springs, you can't.

So no, I won't be leading any charges and in point of fact, my best option is generally to retreat because I'm just not interested in trying to overcome all the bullshit. I'll exert high levels of influence in my tiny little pond where I have full control and the willfully ignorant can remain so without me bothering them.

I can understand, just thought I would ask. Can you recommend where we could go to find an educated discussion on suspension and shock design as it relates to Jeeps?

Thanks for your input and advice. 👍
 
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@Sensei MC arms have more rubber than stock arms.

Maybe you are feeling that difference.

Otherwise I am thinking the ride improvement is due to newly tightened bushings.
 
Just a comment or two on the MC bushings. First, MC's Duroflex bushing material used in their control arms is essentially rubber. No matter what their well-known wild marketing says, that's all it essentially is. Nothing more, nothing less. There are many control arms that use rubber for their bushings including the factory control arms.

They provide no better isolation from vibration or shock than any other rubber bushing does. MC's Duroflex bushings provide more flex than some other rubber bushings do but at the cost of reduced life. They don't hold up as well as other better designs do. That's becoming well known as those using MC's control arms are reporting that now. Often to be shouted down by some who don't believe MC's bushings could possibly have any problems but it's true... they have been out long enough where many MC control arm users are having to replace them.

And the claimed benefit of a better ride from MC's arms is, really, pure and simple bullshit. But due to the placebo effect, many install MC arms and OMG jump on the bandwagon of claims of cloud-like rides. Pure placebo effect in high gear.

You can have equally an equally outstanding ride with those that don't use rubber bushings (sorry I meant to say Duroflex lol) in their control arms. Really. It's those who are new to the Jeep game who swallow the better ride marketing hype hook, line, and sinker. Control arms have little control over the actual ride quality in reality. You can have a really shitty stiff ride with MC control arms with the wrong (too stiff) shock absorbers and appropriate springs just like you can have an outstanding ride with non-MC arms with the right shock absorbers and appropriate springs.

In other words, don't give your MC arms total credit for the ride you're enjoying. The arms just don't have that much control over the ride. Which is why you're receiving a lot of grief here from the many who know better than to give control arms that much credit.

Personally I'm not using MC control arms yet I have a superb ride in my own TJ with its 4" lift with Johnny Joint control arms which use a polyurethane bushing that has no give. I simply have good riding shocks together with my 4" springs that give that good ride. My Lexus-driving wife even commented once on a long drive out to the desert in my TJ how good of a ride my TJ had. Imagine that, especially since I'm not using MC control arms.

It seems like alot of the grief MC is getting is due to their marketing schemes. Maybe I didn't really pay attention to the schemes; as originally stated, I purchased these arms solely due to need to adjust geometry. I only noticed the improvements to my ride as a side effect. So my comments are based on my own personal experience, not their marketing hype. Also, I never stated that these we're the best arms on the planet, or anything remotely synonymous. They allow me to serve my original purpose for purchasing them, and the improvement in ride and handling were just a bonus I was pleasantly surprised to experience. So surprised, that I decided to make this thread about it. To me, this is becoming an Android vs Apple debate.

I read that the bushings within the arms now use a kevlar reinforced design. Personally I have high hopes for these arms. Only time will tell though, or people who have actually ran these arms and had a negative experience chime in.
 
I can understand, just thought I would ask. Can recommend where we could go to find an educated discussion on suspension and shock design as it relates to Jeeps?

Actually there are lots of educated discussions on here but they all turn into this mess of a thread so you have to do a lot of sifting. It is tedious, but the info is there.

You have to be willing to lay down a lot of long held, incorrectly held but long held beliefs and view the info with an open mind. The problem with putting that shit down and never picking it up again is they all start with a small kernel of undeniable truth and use that to extrapolate a fallacy.

Take control arm angle. The truth is that an arm that points straight down will transfer more road noise into the chassis than one that is horizontal or parallel to the ground so we get the "arm angle matters so you want them as flat as possible" Well no, that really isn't true. A typical TJ on 4" lift springs will not noticeably ride worse than stock.

Arm joints are another one. A particular company says they can fix your ride quality issues with their joints. I can disprove that in 30 seconds with a single ride around the block simply by turning the adjustment knob on the high speed side of a set of DSC reservoirs. When every little tiny bump threatens to jar the paint off of the body, what happened to that fucking single point solution that fixes my ride quality?

If you base the philosophy of your position on the nugget that arm joints affect ride quality, then how do you in any adherence to that philosophy supply a track arm with a solid based rod end in it? How is that fucking even possible? One of these things is not like the other and if your statements are true about one then they have to be false about the other or put another way if you can use one in one place, then it really isn't as bad as you would have everyone believe, is it?

Starting to see why this is all fucked up yet?
 
To me, this is becoming an Android vs Apple debate.
And that's why we don't ever learn. Regardless of how good any info is, the moment it is dismissed as a Ford vs Chevy debate, we all lose.
I read that the bushings within the arms now use a kevlar reinforced design.

You can dig around on here if it hasn't been deleted where Matson specifically stated that while they can NOT prove there is any benefit whatsoever to the Kevlar being added to the rubber compound they use, it isn't costing you any more so why not?

Put that in real terms and what you wind up with is "we know folks fall for marketing shit so we're adding KEVLAR GODDAMMIT!!!! and they'll eat it up.
 
I can understand, just thought I would ask. Can you recommend where we could go to find an educated discussion on suspension and shock design as it relates to Jeeps?

Thanks for your input and advice. 👍

Read a book on vehicle dynamics (Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics by Gillespie) is a good one. You'll hardly find a internet forum discussion that is educated on suspension and shock design. The subject is too complex for a public forum to discuss without it devolving into people who don't know much, talking like they do know.
 
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Actually there are lots of educated discussions on here but they all turn into this mess of a thread so you have to do a lot of sifting. It is tedious, but the info is there.

You have to be willing to lay down a lot of long held, incorrectly held but long held beliefs and view the info with an open mind. The problem with putting that shit down and never picking it up again is they all start with a small kernel of undeniable truth and use that to extrapolate a fallacy.

Take control arm angle. The truth is that an arm that points straight down will transfer more road noise into the chassis than one that is horizontal or parallel to the ground so we get the "arm angle matters so you want them as flat as possible" Well no, that really isn't true. A typical TJ on 4" lift springs will not noticeably ride worse than stock.

Arm joints are another one. A particular company says they can fix your ride quality issues with their joints. I can disprove that in 30 seconds with a single ride around the block simply by turning the adjustment knob on the high speed side of a set of DSC reservoirs. When every little tiny bump threatens to jar the paint off of the body, what happened to that fucking single point solution that fixes my ride quality?

If you base the philosophy of your position on the nugget that arm joints affect ride quality, then how do you in any adherence to that philosophy supply a track arm with a solid based rod end in it? How is that fucking even possible? One of these things is not like the other and if your statements are true about one then they have to be false about the other or put another way if you can use one in one place, then it really isn't as bad as you would have everyone believe, is it?

Starting to see why this is all fucked up yet?

I agree, but how does the novice Jeep owner discern between what is fiction and what is truth when read these forums threads? Couldn't you use math, science and physics to prove your conclusions are undeniably correct?
 
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Read a book on vehicle dynamics (Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics by Gillespie) is a good one. You'll hardly find a internet forum discussion that is educated on suspension and shock design. The subject is too complex for a public forum to discuss without it devolving into people who don't know much, talking like they do know.

I agree, but I go back to Justin Smith at Shock Therapy, he has changed the SxS industry discussion of suspension technology and the related forums discussions now accept that there is a better way. Justin has made millions of dollars along the way.
 
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It seems like alot of the grief MC is getting is due to their marketing schemes. Maybe I didn't really pay attention to the schemes; as originally stated, I purchased these arms solely due to need to adjust geometry. I only noticed the improvements to my ride as a side effect. So my comments are based on my own personal experience, not their marketing hype. Also, I never stated that these we're the best arms on the planet, or anything remotely synonymous. They allow me to serve my original purpose for purchasing them, and the improvement in ride and handling were just a bonus I was pleasantly surprised to experience. So surprised, that I decided to make this thread about it. To me, this is becoming an Android vs Apple debate.

I read that the bushings within the arms now use a kevlar reinforced design. Personally I have high hopes for these arms. Only time will tell though, or people who have actually ran these arms and had a negative experience chime in.

I will make you a wager.

I will send you money to get a set of stock style replacement arms (made by Crown). Put them and use for a week. Then put MC on on use for a week. Make no other changes, other than to make sure pinion angles are properly set and everything is torqued correctly. Be objective in your comparisons, and make sure you are driving on the same roads and about the same speeds and such. Come back and give a honest report on what you observe. Send me back the stock arms after the experiment.

My bet is that you will not a see a difference between stock style replacement and MC.

Care to test the theory out?
 
I will make you a wager.

I will send you money to get a set of stock style replacement arms (made by Crown). Put them and use for a week. Then put MC on on use for a week. Make no other changes, other than to make sure pinion angles are properly set and everything is torqued correctly. Be objective in your comparisons, and make sure you are driving on the same roads and about the same speeds and such. Come back and give a honest report on what you observe. Send me back the stock arms after the experiment.

My bet is that you will not a see a difference between stock style replacement and MC.

Care to test the theory out?

I'll take you up on that offer. But lets wait a month, I want to give these a proper shot first.
 
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I agree, but how does the novice Jeep owner discern between what is fiction and what is truth when read these forums threads? Couldn't you use math, science and physics to prove your conclusions are undeniably correct?

Over and over again we have seen that no matter how good the explanation, it doesn't matter. This thread is exactly what happens because the flat earthers can't release themselves of their willful resistance to learn and understand how the components actually work both individually and together within a system.
 
Do they really? MC bushings are filled with a big ball and a thick sleeve. Stock is just a sleeve.

Ya... the rubber bushings in MC are more substantial than stock. In terms of volume.

I'm still skeptical that more rubber on CAs can improve a ride, but I can be swayed.
 
Ya... the rubber bushings in MC are more substantial than stock. In terms of volume.

If I recall correctly... more than JJ too.
Johnny Joints have no rubber content. The black races inside it shown below are made from polyurethane.

Capture.JPG
 
Ya... the rubber bushings in MC are more substantial than stock. In terms of volume.

If I recall correctly... more than JJ too.

I'm still skeptical that more rubber on CAs can improve a ride, but I can be swayed.

All I know is that the typical control arm replacements most buy and install fits into the same factory mounts the stock arms used to be in.

And to revisit the MC track bar hypocrisy, their front axle side proprietary bushing is smaller than the factory bonded rubber bushing. And it is entirely different than their control arm bushings. Meaning, less rubber to make their NVH claims off of.

And FWIW, I used to have a front MC track bar before I replaced it with Currie. In part because I got tired of the cheap heim joint wearing out. Even though MC would send me free replacements.

And JJs don't contain any rubber. So, yes. A Metalcloak bushing has more rubber than a Johnny Joint.
 
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I agree, but how does the novice Jeep owner discern between what is fiction and what is truth when read these forums threads? Couldn't you use math, science and physics to prove your conclusions are undeniably correct?

Fuck me, I spent 15 years trying to explain how bolts work in slip critical connections. Hole size within reason (for example, the bolt sleeve has to make contact around the hole) does not matter. That is in response to 100's of posts with others telling everyone that the reason they have death wobble is due to the hole being wallowed out and the bolt is now too small. To this very day there will still be posts saying to weld a washer over the front hole. Okay, what about the back hole then? Crickets

If the front hole matters, then so does the back hole and the reality is neither do as long as we can get the faying surfaces to make contact. Even when you point out that the factory gave them an example that fully 100% with science, math, and physics that fully invalidates their position, they won't let go. The example lives within a scant few inches of the axle side track bar bracket in the form of a big ass slot in the lower control arm bracket. If hole size actually matters, then how does that slot work? How?

If something that basic can't be moved out of the mythology bin, the rest doesn't stand a chance. Note my signature.
 
I'll take you up on that offer. But lets wait a month, I want to give these a proper shot first.

The better offer is to let me work on it doing the arm swaps. I'll wrap them in aluminum foil so you can't tell which ones are installed and then you get to tell me based on ride quality. Only luck will let you get it right.
 
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Fuck me, I spent 15 years trying to explain how bolts work in slip critical connections. Hole size within reason (for example, the bolt sleeve has to make contact around the hole) does not matter. That is in response to 100's of posts with others telling everyone that the reason they have death wobble is due to the hole being wallowed out and the bolt is now too small. To this very day there will still be posts saying to weld a washer over the front hole. Okay, what about the back hole then? Crickets

If the front hole matters, then so does the back hole and the reality is neither do as long as we can get the faying surfaces to make contact. Even when you point out that the factory gave them an example that fully 100% with science, math, and physics that fully invalidates their position, they won't let go. The example lives within a scant few inches of the axle side track bar bracket in the form of a big ass slot in the lower control arm bracket. If hole size actually matters, then how does that slot work? How?

If something that basic can't be moved out of the mythology bin, the rest doesn't stand a chance. Note my signature.

Hey but I found this article that says you are wrong! I guess you don't know what you are talking about /s
 
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