LCoG and long arm lifts

it's certainly unfortunate that we all suffer for the sins of a few.
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I haven't read all this, I am sure it is interesting and will get around to it so not sure if my following comment is related. But....I am still going to say it because I find it interesting.

I have found that when discussing Jeeps and TJs anywhere other than this forum (and possibly a few other forums), that there is no such thing as a mid arm. There is a short arm and a long arm. I was standing right next to a TJ that has a Savvy MidArm installed talking with it's owner when a guy walked up looked at the undercarriage and then started talking about the "long arm" that was installed. I asked him why he thought it had a long arm installed and he said because the arms weren't installed at the OEM stock bracket locations. I asked him what he thought of the setup and he pointed out pretty quickly the benefits and what he liked about it. I never brought up "mid arm" and neither did the owner of the TJ, we just talked. This is not the first time I have heard the same thing in reference to the definition of long arm.

I personally call suspensions that use the stock brackets - short arms,
kits that relocate the brackets - Long Arms,
and everything else - custom.
Mid Arm to me is just a Kit name.

Is my findings a local/regional thing? Outside of specific forums on the interweb do people know what you are talking about if you bring up mid arm?
 
And hence the attitude of few folks here that try to make sure that people stay in context because, otherwise there is no useful discussion or dissemination whatsoever of factual information. I'm talking about people like the person you thought was information policing and you very harshly asked to go away. If they do go away, all you will have is noise. Context is important and should not be forgotten.

Gonna have to disagree with that... that person IS the noise, drowning out any efforts to get open answers from anybody because the smugness and the strawmen and the attitude immediately puts the victim on the defense. There are stubborn people here that hold onto crap like the spring rate stuff, but there are also some that are pretty well up to speed with what commonly works on a TJ but want to learn more, even if it's not strictly in a TJ context, and we get tired of being lumped in together with the former and all of our attempts to drive an open conversation cockblocked by the same handful of people over and over again. I've seen enough of these threads to know that if somebody came in here with a design approach that worked pretty well, it would be shouted down immediately if it was any different than a savvy skid and midarm, before ever having a chance to be explored.
 
@gasiorv

So, the point is you either have a long d-—, short d-—, or custom d-—?

🤔 🤣
 
I haven't read all this, I am sure it is interesting and will get around to it so not sure if my following comment is related. But....I am still going to say it because I find it interesting.

I have found that when discussing Jeeps and TJs anywhere other than this forum (and possibly a few other forums), that there is no such thing as a mid arm. There is a short arm and a long arm. I was standing right next to a TJ that has a Savvy MidArm installed talking with it's owner when a guy walked up looked at the undercarriage and then started talking about the "long arm" that was installed. I asked him why he thought it had a long arm installed and he said because the arms weren't installed at the OEM stock bracket locations. I asked him what he thought of the setup and he pointed out pretty quickly the benefits and what he liked about it. I never brought up "mid arm" and neither did the owner of the TJ, we just talked. This is not the first time I have heard the same thing in reference to the definition of long arm.

I personally call suspensions that use the stock brackets - short arms,
kits that relocate the brackets - Long Arms,
and everything else - custom.
Mid Arm to me is just a Kit name.

Is my findings a local/regional thing? Outside of specific forums on the interweb do people know what you are talking about if you bring up mid arm?

Any control arm setup that doesn't use the factory mounts is a longer arm. The terminology of "mid arm" is just an attempt to distinguish it from the far more common bolt-on long arm where the frame attachments are part of the center skid. Even when that attempt to distinguish is successful, something being a mid arm has nothing to do with it's geometry design. We can call Genright, Savvy and the old Rokmen kits a mid arm suspension. But they are not all the same. Which is where the emphasis on mount locations comes from. And why it is often said that the arm length itself is largely irrelevant and just the result of connecting the distance between those mounting points.

But most will fixate on the superficial observation that the arms are longer than stock.
 
Gonna have to disagree with that... that person IS the noise, drowning out any efforts to get open answers from anybody because the smugness and the strawmen and the attitude immediately puts the victim on the defense. There are stubborn people here that hold onto crap like the spring rate stuff, but there are also some that are pretty well up to speed with what commonly works on a TJ but want to learn more, even if it's not strictly in a TJ context, and we get tired of being lumped in together with the former and all of our attempts to drive an open conversation cockblocked by the same handful of people over and over again. I've seen enough of these threads to know that if somebody came in here with a design approach that worked pretty well, it would be shouted down immediately if it was any different than a savvy skid and midarm, before ever having a chance to be explored.

That's only true because you want it to be, it isn't.
 
I haven't read all this, I am sure it is interesting and will get around to it so not sure if my following comment is related. But....I am still going to say it because I find it interesting.

I have found that when discussing Jeeps and TJs anywhere other than this forum (and possibly a few other forums), that there is no such thing as a mid arm. There is a short arm and a long arm. I was standing right next to a TJ that has a Savvy MidArm installed talking with it's owner when a guy walked up looked at the undercarriage and then started talking about the "long arm" that was installed. I asked him why he thought it had a long arm installed and he said because the arms weren't installed at the OEM stock bracket locations. I asked him what he thought of the setup and he pointed out pretty quickly the benefits and what he liked about it. I never brought up "mid arm" and neither did the owner of the TJ, we just talked. This is not the first time I have heard the same thing in reference to the definition of long arm.

I personally call suspensions that use the stock brackets - short arms,
kits that relocate the brackets - Long Arms,
and everything else - custom.
Mid Arm to me is just a Kit name.

Is my findings a local/regional thing? Outside of specific forums on the interweb do people know what you are talking about if you bring up mid arm?

Stock arms= 16"ish long. Long arms were at one point 36"ish long. Savvy mid arm= 26"ish long. Or, midway between the two, thus me calling it the mid-arm since it is neither stockish or longish arm length.

It isn't a short arm and it isn't a long arm, so what would you call it?
 
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Gonna have to disagree with that... that person IS the noise, drowning out any efforts to get open answers from anybody because the smugness and the strawmen and the attitude immediately puts the victim on the defense. There are stubborn people here that hold onto crap like the spring rate stuff, but there are also some that are pretty well up to speed with what commonly works on a TJ but want to learn more, even if it's not strictly in a TJ context, and we get tired of being lumped in together with the former and all of our attempts to drive an open conversation cockblocked by the same handful of people over and over again. I've seen enough of these threads to know that if somebody came in here with a design approach that worked pretty well, it would be shouted down immediately if it was any different than a savvy skid and midarm, before ever having a chance to be explored.

The Savvy design is old school and so yesterday. But it is hard to reach an old dog new tricks. Look the memes you have been receiving here,

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dog is named Savvy.
 
Gonna have to disagree with that... that person IS the noise, drowning out any efforts to get open answers from anybody because the smugness and the strawmen and the attitude immediately puts the victim on the defense. There are stubborn people here that hold onto crap like the spring rate stuff, but there are also some that are pretty well up to speed with what commonly works on a TJ but want to learn more, even if it's not strictly in a TJ context, and we get tired of being lumped in together with the former and all of our attempts to drive an open conversation cockblocked by the same handful of people over and over again. I've seen enough of these threads to know that if somebody came in here with a design approach that worked pretty well, it would be shouted down immediately if it was any different than a savvy skid and midarm, before ever having a chance to be explored.

There is no smugness, there is no strawman argument, there is no cockblocking. There is a desire to get people to think and understand the basics. There is a desire to share very useful information that been learned from experience. There is a desire to kill misinformation that keeps rearing its ugly head over and over. It is the opposite of noise, and it will become apparent if you look at all of this setting all your emotions and prior conflicts aside. I am going to take a wild (and perhaps incorrect) guess that whatever you are perceiving may be stemming from the irritation of not being able to find clear answers to the questions you may be asking, pursuant to your own education and learning.

If it is more learning and education you really seek, the person(s) that can provide them are not hard to reach. You have to realize that the concepts being explained here by the really knowledgeable cannot be mathematically proven to the rigor that a textbook can provide or a vehicle manufacturer may need and synthesize. At least not by us hobbyists that are participating here. There is no need for it to be proven - for it has already proven itself on the trail multiple times over. Trial and error and learning from said error and applying that towards the next trial is as effective a methodology as is mathematical rigor - it is the foundation of the scientific method. If you can understand that part and learn to keep the big picture in context while you learn the details about the specifics, your learning will go a very long way.
 
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Stock arms= 16"ish long. Long arms were at one point 36"ish long. Savvy mid arm= 26"ish long. Or, midway between the two, thus me calling it the mid-arm since it is neither stockish or longish arm length.

It isn't a short arm and it isn't a long arm, so what would you call it?

I am good with calling it Mid Arm and I understand what is being referred when mid arm is mentioned. I was just wondering if this is common terminology outside of these forums? I would imagine that in those circles where there are a lot of Jeeps with the mid arm kit installed that it is common, but I have found that it is not common in my region or with people that I have wheeled with outside of the forums.

Also, if mid arm is mentioned in this forums is it specifically related to the savvy "mid arm" kit or is it referring to arms in the 26" range that have similar geometry to the Savvy kit?
 
I am good with calling it Mid Arm and I understand what is being referred when mid arm is mentioned. I was just wondering if this is common terminology outside of these forums? I would imagine that in those circles where there are a lot of Jeeps with the mid arm kit installed that it is common, but I have found that it is not common in my region or with people that I have wheeled with outside of the forums.

Also, if mid arm is mentioned in this forums is it specifically related to the savvy "mid arm" kit or is it referring to arms in the 26" range that have similar geometry to the Savvy kit?

I've seen cases in the JK world where control arms that utilize the factory mounts are being called a mid arm. I have asked why this terminology when the mounts didn't change and have been told that the JK arm is longer than on other vehicles. This would be another example of the common superficial understanding of suspension design that most have.
 
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I am good with calling it Mid Arm and I understand what is being referred when mid arm is mentioned. I was just wondering if this is common terminology outside of these forums? I would imagine that in those circles where there are a lot of Jeeps with the mid arm kit installed that it is common, but I have found that it is not common in my region or with people that I have wheeled with outside of the forums.

Also, if mid arm is mentioned in this forums is it specifically related to the savvy "mid arm" kit or is it referring to arms in the 26" range that have similar geometry to the Savvy kit?

I would call a long arm a system that attaches at the skid plate

A midarm is longer than stock but does not reach all the way to the skid

A short arm is stock