Pros & cons of each control arm: Savvy vs Metalcloak

Texas-TJ said:
MC = Duroflex, double adjustable, MC states they have more degree of flex
Click to expand...
This has been posted before but I know how rarely stuff gets moved around for use as a reference so I'll repeat it again.

The claim of more flex is an attempt to prey yet again on the ignorance of the consumer by trying to make something seem important or valuable as a reason to sway one to make a purchase.

The TJ control arm mount is a fixed width. That doesn't change in stock form and rarely changes in custom applications. So, in order for a joint to achieve more misalignment you either have to make the mount wider or alter some aspect of joint. The rotational limit is controlled by the barrel of the joint hitting opposite corners against the inside of the mount sides.

Crudely illustrated thusly-
1678288379910.png


To increase the amount, either the barrel needs to get smaller in diameter or get narrower.
1678288499131.png

It isn't difficult to understand that either or both only take away from the amount of material that can be used for isolation inside the barrel. The better answer though is to understand what more misalignment does for you as the end user and that answer is absolutely nothing. You can't create enough travel with any length shock on a TJ that will even get close to using the misalignment available in most joints. If you can't get there, what good does any more do? The answer is simple, the claim is only there to prey on your ignorance since it has no actual realized benefit in real life. That and they lied about how much the JJ has unless they have corrected their BS since the last time I looked.
 
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mrblaine said:
This has been posted before but I know how little stuff gets moved around for use as a reference so I'll repeat it again.

The claim of more flex is an attempt to prey yet again on the ignorance of the consumer by trying to make something seem important or valuable as a reason to sway one to make a purchase.

The TJ control arm mount is a fixed width. That doesn't change in stock form and rarely changes in custom applications. So, in order for a joint to achieve more misalignment you either have to make the mount wider or alter some aspect of joint. The rotational limit is controlled by the barrel of the joint hitting opposite corners against the inside of the mount sides.

Crudely illustrated thusly-
View attachment 405696

To increase the amount, either the barrel needs to get smaller in diameter or get narrower.
View attachment 405697
It isn't difficult to understand that either or both only take away from the amount of material that can be used for isolation inside the barrel. The better answer though is to understand what more misalignment does for you as the end user and that answer is absolutely nothing. You can't create enough travel with any length shock on a TJ that will even get close to using the misalignment available in most joints. If you can't get there, what good does any more do? The answer is simple, the claim is only there to prey on your ignorance since it has no actual realized benefit in real life. That and they lied about how much the JJ has unless they have corrected their BS since the last time I looked.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback @mrblaine. That makes sense
 
mrblaine said:
This has been posted before but I know how little stuff gets moved around for use as a reference so I'll repeat it again.

The claim of more flex is an attempt to prey yet again on the ignorance of the consumer by trying to make something seem important or valuable as a reason to sway one to make a purchase.

The TJ control arm mount is a fixed width. That doesn't change in stock form and rarely changes in custom applications. So, in order for a joint to achieve more misalignment you either have to make the mount wider or alter some aspect of joint. The rotational limit is controlled by the barrel of the joint hitting opposite corners against the inside of the mount sides.

Crudely illustrated thusly-
View attachment 405696

To increase the amount, either the barrel needs to get smaller in diameter or get narrower.
View attachment 405697
It isn't difficult to understand that either or both only take away from the amount of material that can be used for isolation inside the barrel. The better answer though is to understand what more misalignment does for you as the end user and that answer is absolutely nothing. You can't create enough travel with any length shock on a TJ that will even get close to using the misalignment available in most joints. If you can't get there, what good does any more do? The answer is simple, the claim is only there to prey on your ignorance since it has no actual realized benefit in real life. That and they lied about how much the JJ has unless they have corrected their BS since the last time I looked.
Click to expand...

Just for shits and giggles - here is their website page "over 68 degrees of misalignment"

1678302317277.png
 
Texas-TJ said:
Just for shits and giggles - here is their website page "over 68 degrees of misalignment"

View attachment 405755
Click to expand...

And for real world context on a setup with more travel than most, here is the angle of my axle relative to the frame with 12" travel shocks at full compression/extension. One
Johnny Joint can easily accommodate this. The JJ on my frame side track bar mount does it with room to spare.
20210904_134031.jpg


20210904_134356.jpg
 
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Mike_H said:
Greasing a johnny joint while still assembled is a fool game. They don't take grease, and if you do manage to squeeze some in there, you run the risk of damaging the Poly race.

I live in an area where there is clay mud...it sucks the oil out of the grease and leaves a sticky mess behind. Its nasty, and requires me to rebuild my joints at least once a year. I've been trying different greases and techniques to keep it in there. I'm about due for another rebuild...
Click to expand...

Give this a try. https://powerupusa.net/index.php/products/power-up-products/thixogrease
 
I'm in a unique situation that I have used OEM, MetalCLoak and Johnny Joints on 3 different, but identical vehicles.

I own a small fleet of rental jeeps, All JL Rubicons, but for this discussion its close enough. Here's a few things I learned.

At one time, I had all 3 types of joints (bushings) mentioned in service. All of my jeeps are 4 JLUR, same tires, same options, same engine, same shocks, comparable mileage, same same same in every way possible.

NHV: Absolutely no difference between the 3. I could hand you the keys to any of the jeeps and have you try to figure out what type of bushing or joint it used. I guarantee there is no one on this forum that could differentiate what type the jeep was running.

Flex: The shocks I run on my fleet are roughly 11 front /12 rear inches of travel. None of the joints are maxed out when the shocks are fully compressed and extended during flex. There is a caveat however. The MC and JJ flex smoothly and without bind. You can feel the tension of the OEM stuff trying to resist the flex, sometimes to the point that the bushing will actually spin in the control arm mount, despite having knurled ridges cut into them. It makes a loud popping sound and the jeep will lean slightly for a while until something forces the bushing back into normal alignment... Usually me loosening the bolt and retorquing. This is not a problem with the aftermarket options. Eventually the knurled grooves wear off.

Durability: ... Winner? are you ready for this? OEM.
Sadly the MC joints are completely ruined... not worn out... I mean disintegrating... at 10k miles. MC replaced them a few times for free, but I got tired of the labor involved to replace all the joints. The MC joints are very easy to replace and require no special tools. Keep in mind that my jeeps see more off road in a week than most jeeps will see in their lifetime.

JJ, much better durability, but they eventually get noisy and require rebuilding. Needs a special tool and is inconvenient,. Its not a huge deal, but Its still a thing.

OEM: Maintenance free. I've had them easily last 30k miles with zero attention given to them. Every once in a while one will fail, but its very rare. Bonus is replacement arms and trackbars are nearly free.

So now my fleet runs all OEM control arms.

Knowing all this... what does my personal jeep run?

Johnny joints.

Run whatever you want, if you don't have a fleet of jeeps to maintain, it really wont matter much.
 
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mrblaine said:
This has been posted before but I know how little stuff gets moved around for use as a reference so I'll repeat it again.

The claim of more flex is an attempt to prey yet again on the ignorance of the consumer by trying to make something seem important or valuable as a reason to sway one to make a purchase.

The TJ control arm mount is a fixed width. That doesn't change in stock form and rarely changes in custom applications. So, in order for a joint to achieve more misalignment you either have to make the mount wider or alter some aspect of joint. The rotational limit is controlled by the barrel of the joint hitting opposite corners against the inside of the mount sides.

Crudely illustrated thusly-
View attachment 405696

To increase the amount, either the barrel needs to get smaller in diameter or get narrower.
View attachment 405697
It isn't difficult to understand that either or both only take away from the amount of material that can be used for isolation inside the barrel. The better answer though is to understand what more misalignment does for you as the end user and that answer is absolutely nothing. You can't create enough travel with any length shock on a TJ that will even get close to using the misalignment available in most joints. If you can't get there, what good does any more do? The answer is simple, the claim is only there to prey on your ignorance since it has no actual realized benefit in real life. That and they lied about how much the JJ has unless they have corrected their BS since the last time I looked.
Click to expand...

It is also a pretty good assumption that if John thought he needed more misalignment for control arm these joints were originally intended for he would have made sure it had them. And if it was a problem Rubicon Express would not have copied Johns design other then the materials.
 
kmas0n said:
I'm in a unique situation that I have used OEM, MetalCLoak and Johnny Joints on 3 different, but identical vehicles.

I own a small fleet of rental jeeps, All JL Rubicons, but for this discussion its close enough. Here's a few things I learned.

At one time, I had all 3 types of joints (bushings) mentioned in service. All of my jeeps are 4 JLUR, same tires, same options, same engine, same shocks, comparable mileage, same same same in every way possible.

NHV: Absolutely no difference between the 3. I could hand you the keys to any of the jeeps and have you try to figure out what type of bushing or joint it used. I guarantee there is no one on this forum that could differentiate what type the jeep was running.

Flex: The shocks I run on my fleet are roughly 11 front /12 rear inches of travel. None of the joints are maxed out when the shocks are fully compressed and extended during flex. There is a caveat however. The MC and JJ flex smoothly and without bind. You can feel the tension of the OEM stuff trying to resist the flex, sometimes to the point that the bushing will actually spin in the control arm mount, despite having knurled ridges cut into them. It makes a loud popping sound and the jeep will lean slightly for a while until something forces the bushing back into normal alignment... Usually me loosening the bolt and retorquing. This is not a problem with the aftermarket options. Eventually the knurled grooves wear off.

Durability: ... Winner? are you ready for this? OEM.
Sadly the MC joints are completely ruined... not worn out... I mean disintegrating... at 10k miles. MC replaced them a few times for free, but I got tired of the labor involved to replace all the joints. The MC joints are very easy to replace and require no special tools. Keep in mind that my jeeps see more off road in a week than most jeeps will see in their lifetime.

JJ, much better durability, but they eventually get noisy and require rebuilding. Needs a special tool and is inconvenient,. Its not a huge deal, but Its still a thing.

OEM: Maintenance free. I've had them easily last 30k miles with zero attention given to them. Every once in a while one will fail, but its very rare. Bonus is replacement arms and trackbars are nearly free.

So now my fleet runs all OEM control arms.

Knowing all this... what does my personal jeep run?

Johnny joints.

Run whatever you want, if you don't have a fleet of jeeps to maintain, it really wont matter much.
Click to expand...

I feel the need to head up to you and tear into one of your rentals.
200.gif
 
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kmas0n said:
I'm in a unique situation that I have used OEM, MetalCLoak and Johnny Joints on 3 different, but identical vehicles.

I own a small fleet of rental jeeps, All JL Rubicons, but for this discussion its close enough. Here's a few things I learned.

At one time, I had all 3 types of joints (bushings) mentioned in service. All of my jeeps are 4 JLUR, same tires, same options, same engine, same shocks, comparable mileage, same same same in every way possible.

NHV: Absolutely no difference between the 3. I could hand you the keys to any of the jeeps and have you try to figure out what type of bushing or joint it used. I guarantee there is no one on this forum that could differentiate what type the jeep was running.

Flex: The shocks I run on my fleet are roughly 11 front /12 rear inches of travel. None of the joints are maxed out when the shocks are fully compressed and extended during flex. There is a caveat however. The MC and JJ flex smoothly and without bind. You can feel the tension of the OEM stuff trying to resist the flex, sometimes to the point that the bushing will actually spin in the control arm mount, despite having knurled ridges cut into them. It makes a loud popping sound and the jeep will lean slightly for a while until something forces the bushing back into normal alignment... Usually me loosening the bolt and retorquing. This is not a problem with the aftermarket options. Eventually the knurled grooves wear off.

Durability: ... Winner? are you ready for this? OEM.
Sadly the MC joints are completely ruined... not worn out... I mean disintegrating... at 10k miles. MC replaced them a few times for free, but I got tired of the labor involved to replace all the joints. The MC joints are very easy to replace and require no special tools. Keep in mind that my jeeps see more off road in a week than most jeeps will see in their lifetime.

JJ, much better durability, but they eventually get noisy and require rebuilding. Needs a special tool and is inconvenient,. Its not a huge deal, but Its still a thing.

OEM: Maintenance free. I've had them easily last 30k miles with zero attention given to them. Every once in a while one will fail, but its very rare. Bonus is replacement arms and trackbars are nearly free.

So now my fleet runs all OEM control arms.

Knowing all this... what does my personal jeep run?

Johnny joints.

Run whatever you want, if you don't have a fleet of jeeps to maintain, it really wont matter much.
Click to expand...

Hey hey hey, keep that non-partisan, unbiased bullshit to yourself!
 
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@Jerry Bransford im baffled you haven’t had to touch your JJ arms in 12 years . Mine are 5 years old and make a ton of noise… granted they perform fine but still . I hope mine last that long because rebuilding them looks to be a big PITA
 
connor grimes said:
@Jerry Bransford im baffled you haven’t had to touch your JJ arms in 12 years . Mine are 5 years old and make a ton of noise… granted they perform fine but still . I hope mine last that long because rebuilding them looks to be a big PITA
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They can’t make noise if the jeep never moves.
 
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Jerry Bransford said:
I only stopped driving it on long trips to go offroading after moving from SoCal to Florida 10 months ago. And they're still not making any noises when I do drive it locally.
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You do know as one gets older, the first tones we stop being able to hear are in the higher pitched range? Since the noise a JJ makes when it lacks sufficient lube are all in the upper range above a 1000 hz, I don't know that you'd hear them anyway.
 
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connor grimes said:
@Jerry Bransford im baffled you haven’t had to touch your JJ arms in 12 years . Mine are 5 years old and make a ton of noise… granted they perform fine but still . I hope mine last that long because rebuilding them looks to be a big PITA
Click to expand...

They are not a big PITA to rebuild, not IMO anyway.
 
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mrblaine said:
You do know as one gets older, the first tones we stop being able to hear are in the higher pitched range? Since the noise a JJ makes when it lacks sufficient lube are all in the upper range above a 1000 hz, I don't know that you'd hear them anyway.
Click to expand...
Could be. Seriously, my hearing for higher frequencies has gone to shit. The VA gave me a pair of hearing aids several years ago after determining it was service related and said I have a severe hearing loss at higher frequencies. It sucks. My wife would agree too, she constantly has to repeat herself now. :(
 
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