Track bar adventures with AndyG

I think if you look at the older Rough Country track bar... The one that has the bodacious curve... You might find that it has the clearance you need.

Also that would be an easy type to move the mount forward or make a custom mount. It seems to me.

Good luck and keep us posted with what you got going on

bodacious, ya.....they musta bent that around a telephone pole.

my ambitious up travel forces me into having the TB cross the face of the diff cover. or need to be a tight arch directly over the cover and follow or be within the profile of my truss at full compression to avoid any contact.

if i could get over the diff i can scoot another fat inch forward, putting the diff up to the pitman.
i'd be interested in a real 3" offset instead of my homemade bar. and really interested in something that would tuck over and allow that push.

this bar is almost it, i'd need to turn that top joint though. not sure if i could lop it off and just re-weld it or even crank it in a press, been lookin for 1 on all the 2nd hand sites, but not paying 150$ for something to cut up that may not even work, so when i find 1 for 50$ i'm all over it.

tb.PNG
 
Good info in here. I have the RC trackbar pictured with the ball joint end. Would love to know if it could be replaced with a heavy duty tie rod end.

@AndyG the moog bushing someone posted - that can be pressed into the track bar on the axle side and then upgraded to a larger bolt setup? Did I read correctly?

Also, doesn’t the track bar you have use a dropped bracket to mount to the frame?
 
Good info in here. I have the RC trackbar pictured with the ball joint end. Would love to know if it could be replaced with a heavy duty tie rod end.

@AndyG the moog bushing someone posted - that can be pressed into the track bar on the axle side and then upgraded to a larger bolt setup? Did I read correctly?

Also, doesn’t the track bar you have use a dropped bracket to mount to the frame?
Yes you're correct across-the-board... If there is a way to use that without the bracket that drops it I don't know about it but Dave might.

Of course if you have the dropped bracket you have to have the dropped pitman arm.

While I don't really care for dropping everything because it's redundant... I do like the orientation of that end versus the tie rod end type joint... But the tie rod end type joint factors in the rowing motion of the front axle more.

And yes you can press the bushing in, it is the same o.d. , you have to go to a 14 mm bolt... Or sleeve the bushing down to 12 m m but ultimately you want to get away from the 10 millimeter bolt at the axle.
 
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Yes you're correct across-the-board... If there is a way to use that without the bracket that drops it I don't know about it but Dave might.

Of course if you have the dropped bracket you have to have the dropped pitman arm.

While I don't really care for dropping everything because it's redundant... I do like the orientation of that end versus the tie rod end type joint... But the tie rod end type joint factors in the rowing motion of the front axle more.

And yes you can press the bushing in, it is the same o.d. , you have to go to a 14 mm bolt... 4 sleeve the bushing down to 12 m m but ultimately you want to get away from the 10 millimeter bolt at the axle.
Thanks for the info, I will probably do those upgrades eventually. The 10mm bolt does seem a bit light duty for what it does.

And I might look into the moog tie rod end you mentioned if mine wears out down the road.

I know some people running the same track bar and pitman set up you are and they don’t seem to have any issues.
 
Thanks for the info, I will probably do those upgrades eventually. The 10mm bolt does seem a bit light duty for what it does.

And I might look into the moog tie rod end you mentioned if mine wears out down the road.

I know some people running the same track bar and pitman set up you are and they don’t seem to have any issues.
My 03 has it , it drives exceptional.

It's just a huge misunderstanding that it's needed for 4" or less of lift. ..it gets installed because it comes in the kits , and guys think they are supposed to. Plus that bar requires that mount .

The bushing/bolt change is worth the time , using a Moog tie rod end is an unknown , it's my guess it fits , but needs to be looked into.

Grease and antisieze on the bolts matters as well.

The idea is you don't want all this rigid, but more than strong enough to handle the forces...and there are some heavy forces at play.
 
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My 03 has it , it drives exceptional.

It's just a huge misunderstanding that it's needed for 4" or less of lift. ..it gets installed because it comes in the kits , and guys think they are supposed to. Plus that bar requires that mount .

The bushing/bolt change is worth the time , using a Moog tie rod end is an unknown , it's my guess it fits , but needs to be looked into.

Grease and antisieze on the bolts matters as well.

The idea is you don't want all this rigid, but more than strong enough to handle the forces...and there are some heavy forces at play.
I’m pretty sure Dave welds his bracket for the RC bar at stock height and then adjusts it up and down to try and dial out any bumpsteer, he also uses that setup (RC bar and mount) for a couple inches of stretch.
 
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I’m pretty sure Dave welds his bracket for the RC bar at stock height and then adjusts it up and down to try and dial out any bumpsteer, he also uses that setup (RC bar and mount) for a couple inches of stretch.
If you don't weld that bracket , it will pop like crazy where it squeezes the frame.
 
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Moogk7252 press in 14mm hardware
Energy suspension 2.7107G press in sleaves w/polly bushing set. this is the bushing set used on Rubicon express Forged track bars, jk,jl,jt.
moog-k201643 press in uniball/bushing. requires some honing of the track bar end to fit
Rough country forged track bar/JeepWest weld on frame bracket.

rcforgedtrackbarg2housing1.jpg
 
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My '03 TJR has the hefty Rough Country adjustable track bar ...it's a stout, simple unit , has a good curve for clearance, and may be one of the best items they sell.

Another cool feature is (with their mount) both ends are oriented vertical, so the frame end mounts like the axle end ..and both ends accept the stock bushing. This also means it pivots with the bushing sleeve on the bolt, not at 90°, meaning a simpler connection that puts less stress on the bushing and bolt.

The downside is the factory bushings are junk, and that's really bad with 33" tires. Really bad.

Being a believer that a track bar , or control arm for that matter , is no better than the bushings , at some point I "upgraded" (so I thought) each end to Energy Suspension polyurethane 2 piece bushings with a 12mm bolt at the axle end. To some extent, it was better than the stock replacements I had in there, but marginal at best...marginal meaning I was closer to death wobble than I knew.

I put all Moog components on the front end with a ZJ tie rod and all of a sudden had death wobble from a bump. I'm like , holy cow , upgraded my way to death wobble ...here we go.

At this point I needed professional help, so I reached out to @Mr Blaine and @Dave Kispaugh (Jeeps West) .

Blaine pointed me toward my upper control arms , and sure enough, one bushing was loose in the mount , and Dave recommended getting away from the 2 Piece bushings in that track bar, and installing Moog K-7252 bushings (this is the Moog replacement bushing for a 3/4 ton Dodge truck). You have to either sleeve the bushing or upsize the bolt, which needs to happen at the axle end any way if you run big tires. Both gave great advice.

So, the short of it is the harmonic I generated found the it's way to the weakest 2 components once I beefed up the front end ...and that was enough.

So what all is there to learn here?

2 piece Energy Suspension polyurethane bushings don't belong in a Rough Country track bar for one , because the o.d. fit is not tight enough nor is the track bar end wide enough to capture all the material . The 2 piece design alone has inherent downsides as well.

Secondly, you are dealing with a bushing that is mostly all polyurethane...harder or not , it is still more material to compress...10 percent of a 1/2" is more travel than 10 percent of 1/8 " for example.

If you hold a stock track bar bushing in your hand and the K-7252 , it is obvious from the weight there is a big difference . The K-7252 sleeve is huge, has half the rubber , which means it has to be dense, and the outer sleeve is very thick as well . It's for a 3/4 Ton ,7500lb truck, it's up for the task, big time.

Also on a big note, thanks to Blaine, I learned that a weakness can be revealed by strengthening other things ...the control arm bushing mount I knew was suspect had never given me a problem, because the system was soaking up the energy when it was more stock and had the 2 piece bushings...it simply never got all the stress. Energy may eventually dissipate, but it's going to go as far as the system can transfer the vibrational frequency til it finds the weak spot if it's a hard enough lick and nothing else gives.

A sure sign you have weak track bar bushings, prior to bump activated death wobble, is having to counter steer excessively on wavy roads ...counter steer meaning as if driving with a side wind you are fighting. If the axle is floating left and right , the tires turn the opposite way as it does because of the road friction , and you have to nudge the wheel a lot.

To wrap this up, the TJ owner who does all the work he can needs to understand his track bar and how to make it stronger, along with checking all the mount points for the suspension
occasionally.

Including your lower shock bolts , you have 34 bushings you ride on, plus your body mount bushings. These things really are suspended ...it's something to think about.

Kinda makes me think the reason we got a rod end at the frame was that jeep engineers knew it would be even more prone to DW with bushings at both ends.

On your bushing count....your point is made but I had to check your math because 34 felt hyperbolic and I came up with 37!
 
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I'm reading through this thread, and I don't think this was definitively answered yet. I apologize if I missed it. I have the RC adj. track bar that has the TRE at the frame side. Has anyone been able to confirm a Moog part number for that piece? I'd like to replace mine, but would prefer a Moog piece and to be able to source it locally rather than ordering another no name brand from RC directly. Thanks everyone!
 
A sure sign you have weak track bar bushings, prior to bump activated death wobble, is having to counter steer excessively on wavy roads ...counter steer meaning as if driving with a side wind you are fighting. If the axle is floating left and right , the tires turn the opposite way as it does because of the road friction , and you have to nudge the wheel a lot.

I have the BIG 3/4 heims on my trackbar. I’ve been dialing caster and toe changes to try to find a more driveable setting… you just described how it feels when I drive perfectly! I’ll go do a dry steer test.
 
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I have the BIG 3/4 heims on my trackbar. I’ve been dialing caster and toe changes to try to find a more driveable setting… you just described how it feels when I drive perfectly! I’ll go do a dry steer test.

I should say I’m not *excessively* countersteering im just constantly counter steering. If heims prove to be solid then it’s probably that non Ackerman causes similar feel. Mine happens where any weight transfer / body roll requires a counter steer.
 
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I should say I’m not *excessively* countersteering im just constantly counter steering. If heims prove to be solid then it’s probably that non Ackerman causes similar feel. Mine happens where any weight transfer / body roll requires a counter steer.

I would definitely contend that you’re having to actively steer and either the axle is not holding steady enough or the steering has some characteristic I’m not familiar with-

Remember control arm joints also hold the axle- And a track bar is nothing but a control arm working in the opposite axis.
 
I'm reading through this thread, and I don't think this was definitively answered yet. I apologize if I missed it. I have the RC adj. track bar that has the TRE at the frame side. Has anyone been able to confirm a Moog part number for that piece? I'd like to replace mine, but would prefer a Moog piece and to be able to source it locally rather than ordering another no name brand from RC directly. Thanks everyone!

Do you have an image or the model number the most recent one received an ES 3096L- If I were going to the part store that would probably be the first thing I would look at most of these companies don’t manufacture ends they just use commonly available parts-

On the Moog website you can find every joint they offer so once you determine the thread pitch and direction and taper usually you can locate one that way too-

Also rough country customer service will help you
 
I should say I’m not *excessively* countersteering im just constantly counter steering. If heims prove to be solid then it’s probably that non Ackerman causes similar feel. Mine happens where any weight transfer / body roll requires a counter steer.

I have had a similar feeling, but I'm using a JKS trackbar with a JJ on one side and "normal" bushing on the axle. I couldn't find any slop in the trackbar. Double and triple check toe and caster. Check your steering box...mine was quite worn. I replaced that and it got better but it was not 'fixed'. The smoking gun I found was the steering intermediate shaft was moving around in the support bearing. I rebuilt that with some good used parts and it tightened my steering up considerably. The bearing will run dry on grease and the sleeve that runs through it on the steering arm is just plastic. Once the bearing seizes, its starts to wear the plastic sleeve down and the whole thing gets loosey goosey.
 
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