The myth: low temp thermostats, electric fan conversions & "performance" radiators

Chris

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The myth
There's a huge myth out there that's been making rounds on the Internet probably since the Internet first started. Go to almost any car forum out there, and you'll find a slew of members who like to push the idea that making your engine run cooler is a good thing.

Often times they'll suggest getting low temperature thermostats, converting the cooling fan to an electric one, and even spending big money on aftermarket "large capacity" aluminum radiators. All of this is supposed to make your engine run cooler than it does from the factory. Truth be told, those can in some circumstances help your engine run cooler at times but that's not always a good thing.

Why do you want your engine to run cooler?
First off, ask yourself this, "Why do I want my engine to run cooler?". Seriously, can you answer that with any sort of technical knowledge? Most people will probably answer something a long the lines of, "Well, if I make my engine run cooler, it will perform better.".

Will I gain anything from a cooler running engine?
No, you will not. The engineers who designed your TJ built the engine with an optimal range of operating temperatures in mind. That "optimal range" is there for a reason. When your engine runs within those temperature ranges, it's going to get the best performance, fuel economy, emissions, etc.

What about really hot days?
Do you really think that the engineers who designed your vehicle didn't take into consideration that a god majority of the population lives in hotter climate states such as Texas, Arizona, and the Southern states as well? Do you think that those same engineers don't realize how hot it gets there when you're sitting at a stop light with the AC on, 120 degrees outside, etc.? Well then, if you think the engineers didn't account for that, they must be real idiots.

What happens if I make my engine run cooler?
If you fall sucker to one of these myths and decide to make your engine run cooler, you'll be doing more harm than good. As stated above, your engine (and your ECU) are designed to run in an optimal temperature range. When you dump money into all these parts that make your engine run cooler, you're reverse engineering something that was already engineered well to begin with. By making your engine run cooler you'll be wasting money, possibly worsening your fuel economy, and potentially doing damage to certain sensors (i.e. O2 sensors) that are designed to work in conjunction with the ECU and an engine that is running the way that the ECU wants it to.

Conclusion
Please do not fall victim to this myth. There is absolutely no reason at all that the majority of us need to make our TJs run cooler. Take guys like @Jerry Bransford for instance, who are wheeling in the extreme conditions down there in Johnson Valley. Jerry is slow crawling along as he climbs rocks, and he's using a stock cooling system. If Jerry had any issues with overheating, don't you think you'd have heard about it by now?

The only reason I can see for running an aftermarket cooling system on a TJ would be if you have some sort of an engine swap (i.e. a V8, Cummins, etc.), where the stock TJ cooling system simply won't work. It might also be an exception of you had an extremely high horsepower 4.0 stroker engine (but even then, you'd need to find someone to properly tune your engine for it). But again, this is likely less than 1% of us that own TJs.

So please don't go wasting your money on foolish things like low temp thermostats, electric fan conversions, and "high performance" radiators. It's all a waste of money that will yield no positive gains whatsoever. This is one of those internet myths that continues to float around, but should be shot dead.

This is my attempt at shooting it dead!
 
I think it stems from the fact that cool air is more dense than warm air, so it has more energy potential. That is why intercoolers work on turbos. The illogical internet people then conclude that if I can make the whole engine cooler, then I should gain the same type of benefit.

Doesn't work that way...

May also be related to engines that are tuned to 99 percent (racecars), where all that stuff starts to matter. People think that if they do it on racecar, it must be good for the family truckster. The reality is that factory engines are so conservatively built, that none of those optimizations (cooling, intake, exhaust, etc) really do anything. The tradeoff is that the engine will run for 250000 miles without a rebuild.

Compare it to a marine engine...they last about 2000 hours before rebuild...or another way 70,000 miles if your average speed is 35 mph. They are tuned differently...more on the edge, because they are used that way. The tradeoff for power is longetivity. Boat engines have two speeds...idle and WFO.
 
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Good point. This is also why I mentioned the case of an extremely high horsepower 4.0 stroker engine. If you had something like that running on high octane fuel and putting out an immense amount of horsepower, then sure, I could see why it would be a possibility that you'd need to improve your cooling system.

In my decades on the Internet however, I find that people are dishing out this bad advice based on nothing. Oh, you've got a stock Jeep engine? You need to put an electric fan on that!

Just got a new BMW M3? Definitely put a low temp thermostat in that thing!

Again, it's guys who are just doing these things blindly, with no knowledge of how their engine was designed.
 
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210* must be holy grail for auto makers as every vehicle i own operates at this temp, except my turbo.
I was actually considering posting of the matter, about TJ operating temps.
 
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210* must be holy grail for auto makers as every vehicle i own operates at this temp, except my turbo.
I was actually considering posting of the matter, about TJ operating temps.

While I don't know for certain, I would imagine that the guys who design engines have probably found that 210 is the desired operating temperature for the majority of automobile engines out there (at least the ones you see on the road the most).

I suspect that they've found over time, that this temperature leads to the highest efficiency in terms of output.
 
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You wanna know why it's bogus? Because those that believe it recommend a 160 for every car and truck. How did 160 become the temp to run? If 195 is too hot and 160 is better, why not 140 or 100 even? I think it stems from poor vehicle cooling systems from years past. In HS me and my buds all had hot rods with huge motors that would over heat so we ran 160's or no stat at all. Things aren't that way any longer. Same with oils. Vehicles now run weights as low as 0; 0-20, 5-20, 5-30, etc. 10-40 is no longer the standard although you will run in to those living in the past that think 5-20 will burn up an engine because of how thin it is.

Buy hey, do not believe engineers, believe some internet fool that has a tool box in his garage.
 
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While I don't know for certain, I would imagine that the guys who design engines have probably found that 210 is the desired operating temperature for the majority of automobile engines out there (at least the ones you see on the road the most).

I suspect that they've found over time, that this temperature leads to the highest efficiency in terms of output.
The higher temps make it easier to pass the federal and state smog tests. For example, I installed a cooler thermostat into my TJ nearly 20 years ago before I finally figured out how they really worked and what problems can be caused by having done that. My TJ then failed its next smog test and the smog guy told me to go install the correct 195 degree thermostat and come back. I did and it immediately passed. :)
 
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Anyone ever think that maybe the cylinder temp is optimal for combustion at the recommended temp. Efi systems are calibrated to get optimal efficiency at these temps. Have seen older tbi units that choke themselves so bad they won't run with the improper thermostat.
 
Anyone ever think that maybe the cylinder temp is optimal for combustion at the recommended temp. Efi systems are calibrated to get optimal efficiency at these temps. Have seen older tbi units that choke themselves so bad they won't run with the improper thermostat.

I have no doubt that there is probably an optimal cylinder temp for combustion. I think that's all things that the engineers figured out when they designed a particular engine. Of course then you have the "wise guys" on the internet who for whatever reason or another assume they know better and try to outsmart the engineers, haha.
 
The engineers actually do a very good job of handling the vast majority of conditions that a Jeep will face in these regards. Usually* if you need a lower thermostat because it's heating up beyond normal range, it's because there is a weak link in the system somewhere, basically some component or more aren't pulling their weight. This could even be restricted airflow to the radiator from accessories like a high mounted winch and center mounted lights or maybe something as easy as low coolant. Occasionally there are conditions where the Jeep hits the edge cases that the engineers couldn't account for due to time/resources/money or even just plain science working against them but these are few and far between. My 5.7 needs a cooler thermostat because the 3 core radiator is small for this engine thus it is the weak link when in stop and go traffic in 115 degree temperature but this is obviously not stock and the critical piece is that the open/closed loop operating temperature threshold has been adjusted to account for it as well as many other computer adjustments. If you don't reprogram to that degree including also the fan kick on temperature/shut off then you shouldn't be adjusting the thermostat temp at all because you are messing with the operating criteria that the computer uses to tell the engine how to make subtle adjustments to run properly.

I remember my 2.5 running only 10-15 degrees above standard operating temps when crawling in Moab when it was 105 so the standard jeep system works pretty well assuming the 4.0 has an equally effective system.

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The engineers actually do a very good job of handling the vast majority of conditions that a Jeep will face in these regards. Usually* if you need a lower thermostat because it's heating up beyond normal range, it's because there is a weak link in the system somewhere, basically some component or more aren't pulling their weight. This could even be restricted airflow to the radiator from accessories like a high mounted winch and center mounted lights or maybe something as easy as low coolant. Occasionally there are conditions where the Jeep hits the edge cases that the engineers couldn't account for due to time/resources/money or even just plain science working against them but these are few and far between. My 5.7 needs a cooler thermostat because the 3 core radiator is small for this engine thus it is the weak link when in stop and go traffic in 115 degree temperature but this is obviously not stock and the critical piece is that the open/closed loop operating temperature threshold has been adjusted to account for it as well as many other computer adjustments. If you don't reprogram to that degree including also the fan kick on temperature/shut off then you shouldn't be adjusting the thermostat temp at all because you are messing with the operating criteria that the computer uses to tell the engine how to make subtle adjustments to run properly.

I remember my 2.5 running only 10-15 degrees above standard operating temps when crawling in Moab when it was 105 so the standard jeep system works pretty well assuming the 4.0 has an equally effective system.

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In your case with a V8 swap, that sort of throws this whole thread out the window. You've got have a custom solution for a V8 swap in terms of radiator, fan, etc.
 
In your case with a V8 swap, that sort of throws this whole thread out the window. You've got have a custom solution for a V8 swap in terms of radiator, fan, etc.
Absolutely but for anyone that is stock internals running a 2.5 or 4.0 then your cooling system shouldnt need any "improvements" from you if it's in proper working order meaning fan clutch, water pump, radiator, shroud, hoses, etc. are all functioning properly.

Modifying the thermostat temp is likely going to cause downstream problems in how the engine is runs like Jerry and Chris were getting at

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Yep, that's the point I was trying to get across originally. If your cooling system is functioning optimally, you shouldn't need to modify it in any way, as it should do it's job just fine. People who are modifying their cooling systems on 4.0s and 2.5s in hopes of gaining some sort of "performance" from them are simply wasting their money.
 
I live in a cold state(Minnesota). I converted to an electric fan to allow my engine to reach operating temp sooner during winter. Still need to run a winter front to get enough heat tho. The navigator’s feet get cold and if momma ain’t happy...
 
I have a question about the other end of the spectrum. I replaced my stock radiator with an aluminum 3 row off amazon. My jeep (05 4.0 wrangler X) never runs evem close to 210 now. I am running a stock 195 degree t stat and running an obd scanner while driving it averages about 188 degrees. What do I do to bring the temp up to the correct range? Block part of the radiator?
Thanks for your input

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Chris, I think he meant to block part of the airflow to the radiator. I'm not sure how a 195 degree thermostat would allow the engine to run at 188 degrees. I would think it would warm up to 195 degrees then open the thermostat which would cause the temp to drop and the thermostat to close then repeat.
 
Chris, I think he meant to block part of the airflow to the radiator. I'm not sure how a 195 degree thermostat would allow the engine to run at 188 degrees. I would think it would warm up to 195 degrees then open the thermostat which would cause the temp to drop and the thermostat to close then repeat.

Ahhh, makes sense.

Well, gauges can be inaccurate as well, so I would be curious to know what gauge the temperature is being read with.
 
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I think a lot of the thermostat confusion comes down to confusion about how the temperature should behave in a normal TJ. Considering some TJ's have dummy gauges (aka the temp gauge sits at just above 210 until the engine hits 260), it can become confusing about where the Jeep should be temperature wise.

My question is:
I've seen people claim they've been siting in traffic with the AC on when its 115 degrees out and their temperature gauge is sitting below 210. Is this how a TJ should behave? I know if I leave my TJ idling with the AC on in even 85 degree weather, the needle likes to go above 210. If I click the hand throttle so it revs to 1500, the needle goes back down to 210. What is normal behavior for a TJ?
 
I think a lot of the thermostat confusion comes down to confusion about how the temperature should behave in a normal TJ. Considering some TJ's have dummy gauges (aka the temp gauge sits at just above 210 until the engine hits 260), it can become confusing about where the Jeep should be temperature wise.

My question is:
I've seen people claim they've been siting in traffic with the AC on when its 115 degrees out and their temperature gauge is sitting below 210. Is this how a TJ should behave? I know if I leave my TJ idling with the AC on in even 85 degree weather, the needle likes to go above 210. If I click the hand throttle so it revs to 1500, the needle goes back down to 210. What is normal behavior for a TJ?

Your needle should sit above 210 most of the time, especially with hot outside temps and the AC on. This is 100% normal.