The New Jeep Pickup Trucks

No, I said his needs were basic when it came to some place to get out of the weather when he is fishing for a couple of days at the river. He bought the 4 Runner because the selection was very limited as in there is a waiting list for any that hit the lots, he did look at the specs but even when he was shown how much area the seats ate up, it didn't dawn on him what that meant. His Tacoma was on it's second engine, everything was wearing out and needing replacement and frankly he was as tired of asking me to help fix it as I was fixing it just to keep it going. He was terrified of it breaking down and never went more than 20 miles from his house in the last 3 years he owned it. He is retired on a fixed income and the proceeds from his father's estate were what allowed the purchase.

Doesn't change that I believe he has the wrong vehicle. But, he now travels several hours to fish with no heartburn.
It's crazy lately buying. We bought my wife's truck without test driving it. We found out quick why it was cheaper than the others pretty quick, but it was an easy fix luckily.

I hope he's still able to make it work. A man's gotta fish.
 
He was terrified of it breaking down and never went more than 20 miles from his house in the last 3 years he owned it. He is retired on a fixed income and the proceeds from his father's estate were what allowed the purchase.
Well with this information the situation make much more sense !
I hope he can continue to enjoy fishing , thanks for patching up his Taco as a stop gap.
 
I like the new Jeep pick ups but I'm happy with my old one. 😊

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I still like them and if the wife and I can find a diesel one that's not priced so absurdly we plan to snatch one up. Part of that is due to the lack of diesel options out there as well, because they're rare and they're going to be more rare in the future.

The trajectory of regulations is not trending toward logic and sound engineering. It seems that this massive industry is being led by government regulators that got in place by showing up and getting better than 50% on multiple choice tests and religiously quoting slogans.

And again I'll make the point that what maintains our vehicles is not HP. Torque and the torque curve and the gearing is what you should be looking at unless you're racing and even then you're looking for torque and then you also want to ensure you've got the RPM range too. I have 160 hp, I can't beat a 4.0 with acceleration, but I can load up and get on the highway and put it in 5th gear and never down downshift until I pull off for my exit. A 4.0 can do the same with the right gearing, because it's just torque and driving at the correct RPMs.

For factory type gearing and what kills me on most compact trucks is their lack of torque. 300 ft lbs with anything 4.10 and numerically smaller a great way to keep your modern transmission from constantly shifting for a vehicle that's roughly 5,000 lbs. Because I tend to tow a bit more often, my preference would be around 400 ft-lbs so my transmission isn't shifting as often. Now with the the 3.6 Pentastar, which is a "sporty" high revving engine, the torque is a bit low, but with a gear change it would be ok. However its better suited IMO for something lighter duty, though it is a good fit as far as cooling and some other considerations of the Jeep.

Looking around at the ED and the tunes you can get 400 ft-lbs around 1,500 rpms. It's a turbo vehicle so yeah there's a delay, but when you're towing, anticipation is just what you do and as far as off-road, diesel is awesome, especially with a proper tune. I tend to like to just lightly touch my throttle so the lag really is a non-issue for me anyway, because I don't mind being passed when accelerating. Plus Jeep tends to like to run fuel lines near exhaust so they can burn a few Jeep BBQs, which I'd rather avoid too, though that'll be easier to deal with than when they decide to go EV and someone slips on a rock and punctures a battery and there's no way to put the fire out.

When I'm towing, especially our camper, it can be difficult getting into refuel the vehicle, so I like to minimize the times I have to fill up and getting sub 10 mpg with a gas engine is kinda awful, but with the diesel I think I'd get about 14-16 mpg once its tuned and deleted while towing. My preference is to bring a couple of fuel cans for emergency and refuel when not hooked to the camper.

Cooling is still a gamble, but diesels like heat to a point, but removing the EGR cooling load might be enough to do the trick, but it very well might require slowing down on really steep grades or going with 4.10s or a transmission cooler or turning off the AC or going with a smaller tire or putting it in D and not OD. The deletes are difficult for these engines, but the alternative makes the diesel an unreliable option IMO. However vs building my own diesel Jeep truck, I'll be time ahead, if it will even stop me from building one.

Don't get me wrong I think for most people they should get the Pentastar and I think if they offer a 392 or V8, that it'll be the best option for most people. I can't stand V6s, because I like to keep vehicles for decades and the only reason I'd go V6 diesel is because of how rare the diesel options are and when a diesel is working I love the way they operate.

For all of the new engines though I suggest doing your research on how the coolant is flowing between the block and the head and how the EGR is designed, because a lot of EGR can act like bombs, though now they tend to just blow up your head gasket and often the coolant flow of the new blocks and the different material of the head and block is inadequate during operation and after operation and will take out your head gasket prematurely and when figuring out your head gasket is bad you will often mess up the bottom end too, which is often designed to handle just a little more than its max rating, but let it miss a few times and its damaged ready for the dumpster.
 
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^ This.
All of this.
I might add too that the industry is fine with this because the alternatives to $50k trucks are not the $30k truck across the southern border. We can barely get away with build your own and now regulators have been going after the aftermarket.

More than ever there's a murmur from people with multiple $60k+ cars in their packed garages pushing mandates for $60k cars. I don't think prices are going down anytime soon either. I'm starting to embrace the used $30k or even $40k pickup, because I've looked at the Cybertruck and though I do kind of like it, the only option I could even contemplate owning starts at $70k for pre-Order and I have no way of charging it on the farm unless I get some big PTO-driven generator or start paying an electric company to add a service and start running powerlines or redirect some of the natural gas to a BIG generator. I've been trying to keep the farm off-grid, but big brother is getting a bit more in our face and this is coming from someone that embraces solar where it makes sense and even some where it doesn't make sense.

I'm not opposed to some EV where it makes sense, but we tried Hybrid and I'm on a desert island in my area, so buy an EV or hybrid and you're your own mechanic in my area. I have much better support with a Jeep with a Cummins than our Toyota Hybrid and shops won't even talk with me if we had gone EV. And in the meantime we live in a rather rural area with mice everywhere and new wiring insulation is a favorite meal for rodents.

In any case this country isn't striving for more quality at a lower price like I saw when I was in India. We seem to be going for less quality at a higher cost. And we've got $5k entertainment dashes that our phones and tablets have more capability and 20-40% of the sale price is regulatory related and we're losing options besides the color of the upholstery. The new vehicles are so carefully integrated that they're a nightmare to repair for the average DIY mechanic and OEM is fine with that because they can charge whatever they want or you can buy an outrageously expensive vehicle and pay outrageous taxes on top of the insane regulatory cost and all the taxes every time we fill our tanks with money that was also taxed.

That's just another reason I'm a bit more open to getting an overpriced truck with an overpriced diesel in it now, because further down the road is projecting much worse, not to mention if either through regulation or market forces decide to double or triple the price of fuel. I can make diesel if it gets bad enough and I can modify the injection to handle it. I don't want to make ethanol for my vehicle, just for my own consumption.
 
I might add too that the industry is fine with this because the alternatives to $50k trucks are not the $30k truck across the southern border. We can barely get away with build your own and now regulators have been going after the aftermarket.

More than ever there's a murmur from people with multiple $60k+ cars in their packed garages pushing mandates for $60k cars. I don't think prices are going down anytime soon either. I'm starting to embrace the used $30k or even $40k pickup, because I've looked at the Cybertruck and though I do kind of like it, the only option I could even contemplate owning starts at $70k for pre-Order and I have no way of charging it on the farm unless I get some big PTO-driven generator or start paying an electric company to add a service and start running powerlines or redirect some of the natural gas to a BIG generator. I've been trying to keep the farm off-grid, but big brother is getting a bit more in our face and this is coming from someone that embraces solar where it makes sense and even some where it doesn't make sense.

I'm not opposed to some EV where it makes sense, but we tried Hybrid and I'm on a desert island in my area, so buy an EV or hybrid and you're your own mechanic in my area. I have much better support with a Jeep with a Cummins than our Toyota Hybrid and shops won't even talk with me if we had gone EV. And in the meantime we live in a rather rural area with mice everywhere and new wiring insulation is a favorite meal for rodents.

In any case this country isn't striving for more quality at a lower price like I saw when I was in India. We seem to be going for less quality at a higher cost. And we've got $5k entertainment dashes that our phones and tablets have more capability and 20-40% of the sale price is regulatory related and we're losing options besides the color of the upholstery. The new vehicles are so carefully integrated that they're a nightmare to repair for the average DIY mechanic and OEM is fine with that because they can charge whatever they want or you can buy an outrageously expensive vehicle and pay outrageous taxes on top of the insane regulatory cost and all the taxes every time we fill our tanks with money that was also taxed.

That's just another reason I'm a bit more open to getting an overpriced truck with an overpriced diesel in it now, because further down the road is projecting much worse, not to mention if either through regulation or market forces decide to double or triple the price of fuel. I can make diesel if it gets bad enough and I can modify the injection to handle it. I don't want to make ethanol for my vehicle, just for my own consumption.

This is the pickup you need:

1626362024171.png
 
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All of which are reasons why I'm "done" with new vehicles. And I feel your pain - diesels have never been popular here, repeated GM fiascos starting in the 70s didn't help that. The Indians have their priorities straight; but between the clueless and religious regulators we have in the US added to the overall effeteness of Americans, we're stuck with overpriced crap that caters to the smartphone crowd.
 
I might add too that the industry is fine with this because the alternatives to $50k trucks are not the $30k truck across the southern border. We can barely get away with build your own and now regulators have been going after the aftermarket.

More than ever there's a murmur from people with multiple $60k+ cars in their packed garages pushing mandates for $60k cars. I don't think prices are going down anytime soon either. I'm starting to embrace the used $30k or even $40k pickup, because I've looked at the Cybertruck and though I do kind of like it, the only option I could even contemplate owning starts at $70k for pre-Order and I have no way of charging it on the farm unless I get some big PTO-driven generator or start paying an electric company to add a service and start running powerlines or redirect some of the natural gas to a BIG generator. I've been trying to keep the farm off-grid, but big brother is getting a bit more in our face and this is coming from someone that embraces solar where it makes sense and even some where it doesn't make sense.

I'm not opposed to some EV where it makes sense, but we tried Hybrid and I'm on a desert island in my area, so buy an EV or hybrid and you're your own mechanic in my area. I have much better support with a Jeep with a Cummins than our Toyota Hybrid and shops won't even talk with me if we had gone EV. And in the meantime we live in a rather rural area with mice everywhere and new wiring insulation is a favorite meal for rodents.

In any case this country isn't striving for more quality at a lower price like I saw when I was in India. We seem to be going for less quality at a higher cost. And we've got $5k entertainment dashes that our phones and tablets have more capability and 20-40% of the sale price is regulatory related and we're losing options besides the color of the upholstery. The new vehicles are so carefully integrated that they're a nightmare to repair for the average DIY mechanic and OEM is fine with that because they can charge whatever they want or you can buy an outrageously expensive vehicle and pay outrageous taxes on top of the insane regulatory cost and all the taxes every time we fill our tanks with money that was also taxed.

That's just another reason I'm a bit more open to getting an overpriced truck with an overpriced diesel in it now, because further down the road is projecting much worse, not to mention if either through regulation or market forces decide to double or triple the price of fuel. I can make diesel if it gets bad enough and I can modify the injection to handle it. I don't want to make ethanol for my vehicle, just for my own consumption.

Kill the aftermarket, kill the independent mechanic, kill right to repair, and perceived obsolescence on par with mobile phones. Subscription fees unlock features of your car that are built in.

You'll truly own nothing, because you'll be beholden to the OEM for everything, and you'll be happy.

Self-sufficiency is not popular.
 
Kill the aftermarket, kill the independent mechanic, kill right to repair, and perceived obsolescence on par with mobile phones. Subscription fees unlock features of your car that are built in.

You'll truly own nothing, because you'll be beholden to the OEM for everything, and you'll be happy.

Self-sufficiency is not popular.
The whole thing is now driven by the smartphone model. The CarCos have learned from the TelCos.
 
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All of which are reasons why I'm "done" with new vehicles. And I feel your pain - diesels have never been popular here, repeated GM fiascos starting in the 70s didn't help that. The Indians have their priorities straight; but between the clueless and religious regulators we have in the US added to the overall effeteness of Americans, we're stuck with overpriced crap that caters to the smartphone crowd.
The other issue I have that really grates at me is from spending a bit of time over in India and Asia is from seeing what people with such little means have access to compared to us for vehicles, but when you make $1/day your compact truck purchase means SO MUCH MORE and a $20k truck there is better in most quantitative metrics than any compact truck here for $40k and then to drive a 3/4 and 1 ton trucks that pull better and get better fuel economy than our little baby Jeeps and trucks. Then to even think about going and spending $50k on a vehicle that is marketed with the wrong specification and the powertrain is just a band-aid compared to how it could easily be equipped with like a 4L turbo diesel 4 cylinder and it would get 30mpg and last over 500k miles.

Then engines don't even need to be carbon graphite wizards or anything stupid. They could be iron heads on iron blocks with geared timing and probably still a common-rail to eliminate smoke and 1 intake valve per cylinder and 1 exhaust valve per cylinder and underhead cam and you'd have 400ft lbs at 1,200 rpms with a 6 speed Auto and no engineer would have any problems implementing something like that. They could even dust off engine blueprints from the 1940s and just use a copier and then send that to Bosch to finish the rest and then take a nap for the 7 other hrs left in their 8 hr day.

Unfortunately that would lead to a $20k vehicle that would like for 3 decades before major servicing and there would be so much less fuel consumption there would be so much fuel tax money robbed from us that some contractors would roll on the floor kicking and screaming in need of "free money". Oh and put the sulfur back in diesel in rural areas maybe, but that might lead to cheaper food pricing.
 
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@BugoutJeep You're preaching to the choir! GMC discontinued their wonderful Big Block V6 series because they were TOO reliable - but no surprise there as GM has always led the market in cheapening their product. No keyhole on the passenger side door is "exhibit A".

I don't mind paying for quality - but I refuse to keep paying over and over again. I only want to buy something ONCE, and keep it forever. That's why I drive a 36 year old Mercedes Diesel. In spite of all the money I've put into that car - its STILL the cheapest car I've ever owned. I think I've spent about $25K and have owned it for 21 years now. I couldn't BUY anything equivalent now, and if I did it would be far more than $25K, and wouldn't last as long.

Like I told the InsCo back in 2011 when they were trying to total that car for very little money: "NEVER try to out cheap a Mercedes Diesel owner!"
 
I think a lot of this is just due to cheap credit. If one had $40k cash, one could take a donor vehicle and build one hell of a nice and reliable vehicle. A Gladiator isn't much different than a JKU with a truck bed stuck behind it. A JKU with a 3.8 is in need of a good engine and transmission in any account.
 
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@BugoutJeep You're preaching to the choir! GMC discontinued their wonderful Big Block V6 series because they were TOO reliable - but no surprise there as GM has always led the market in cheapening their product. No keyhole on the passenger side door is "exhibit A".

I don't mind paying for quality - but I refuse to keep paying over and over again. I only want to buy something ONCE, and keep it forever. That's why I drive a 36 year old Mercedes Diesel. In spite of all the money I've put into that car - its STILL the cheapest car I've ever owned. I think I've spent about $25K and have owned it for 21 years now. I couldn't BUY anything equivalent now, and if I did it would be far more than $25K, and wouldn't last as long.

Like I told the InsCo back in 2011 when they were trying to total that car for very little money: "NEVER try to out cheap a Mercedes Diesel owner!"
A guy at work had one of the older Mercedes but he recently sold it I think right after he added a compound turbo for it. Pretty nice setup. I work with a lot of guys with mechanic experience so there's some really nice custom specimens around the shop.

I have a truly cheap side (like I make my wife cut my hair and usually just a couple times a year) and I want quality side that I oscillate between with a bit of reason involved and calculations somewhat guiding me.

When I get in a vehicle I tend to notice a lot issues most don't notice and generally it has to do with the drivetrain, lighting, etc. When I'm driving most new cars, the alert goes off in my head about principles being violated and then the life tends to suffer when there were already options on the table that should have been no-brainers. They do tend to be mostly trouble free for a longer initial period, but then they have BIG trouble all at once and I know the OEMs have to make money, but maybe they can make it some other way. I would consider a $100k vehicle if it would last and be economical during ownership for 50 years, but by breaking some principles I wonder about a $50k vehicle lasting 25 years. Plus if you can last 50 years, you're gonna last probably 100 with probably a couple rounds of major maintenance.

Because I'm picky it's so hard to move vehicle to vehicle, but that's the best way IMO for someone smarter than me. There's no 1 vehicle either for every need and I've never found an OEM vehicle equipped in a way that doesn't have me "fixing" it either.
 
A guy at work had one of the older Mercedes but he recently sold it I think right after he added a compound turbo for it. Pretty nice setup. I work with a lot of guys with mechanic experience so there's some really nice custom specimens around the shop.

I have a truly cheap side (like I make my wife cut my hair and usually just a couple times a year) and I want quality side that I oscillate between with a bit of reason involved and calculations somewhat guiding me.

When I get in a vehicle I tend to notice a lot issues most don't notice and generally it has to do with the drivetrain, lighting, etc. When I'm driving most new cars, the alert goes off in my head about principles being violated and then the life tends to suffer when there were already options on the table that should have been no-brainers. They do tend to be mostly trouble free for a longer initial period, but then they have BIG trouble all at once and I know the OEMs have to make money, but maybe they can make it some other way. I would consider a $100k vehicle if it would last and be economical during ownership for 50 years, but by breaking some principles I wonder about a $50k vehicle lasting 25 years. Plus if you can last 50 years, you're gonna last probably 100 with probably a couple rounds of major maintenance.

Because I'm picky it's so hard to move vehicle to vehicle, but that's the best way IMO for someone smarter than me. There's no 1 vehicle either for every need and I've never found an OEM vehicle equipped in a way that doesn't have me "fixing" it either.
When I shop for a vehicle, my first priority is the engine, closely followed by the transmission. Nobody cares anymore - they're apparently all concerned with smartphone stuff and don't give a damn about the drivetrain other than it must output insane amounts of HP.
 
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@BugoutJeep You're preaching to the choir! GMC discontinued their wonderful Big Block V6 series because they were TOO reliable - but no surprise there as GM has always led the market in cheapening their product. No keyhole on the passenger side door is "exhibit A".

I don't mind paying for quality - but I refuse to keep paying over and over again. I only want to buy something ONCE, and keep it forever. That's why I drive a 36 year old Mercedes Diesel. In spite of all the money I've put into that car - its STILL the cheapest car I've ever owned. I think I've spent about $25K and have owned it for 21 years now. I couldn't BUY anything equivalent now, and if I did it would be far more than $25K, and wouldn't last as long.

Like I told the InsCo back in 2011 when they were trying to total that car for very little money: "NEVER try to out cheap a Mercedes Diesel owner!"

Have you seen the plastic scissor jack recall GM has? https://www.autoblog.com/2021/06/18/gm-safety-recall-plastic-jacks/
How anyone can be a diehard GM fan is beyond me at this point. Liking certain models - corvettes, silverados, sure. But supporting this company? Take a good long hard look at yourself in a mirror. This company actively hates you.

I think a lot of this is just due to cheap credit.
^This again.

Two extra doors, and cheap credit have killed this whole thing we're all into :ROFLMAO:
 
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All of which are reasons why I'm "done" with new vehicles. And I feel your pain - diesels have never been popular here, repeated GM fiascos starting in the 70s didn't help that. The Indians have their priorities straight; but between the clueless and religious regulators we have in the US added to the overall effeteness of Americans, we're stuck with overpriced crap that caters to the smartphone crowd.
Diesels are not popular here because we are wholly fucked up when it comes to car power plants. The vast majority of potential diesel purchasers want the power and throttle response of a more than healthy V-8 and the economy and emissions of a shitbox. Attempting to meet those demands by the manufacturers does nothing but screw up the engines. Meanwhile the rest of the world does just fine with low horsepower low revving, moderate torque diesels even in cargo vehicles because they don't know any better and it just plain works.

Smartphones have nothing to do with that. We were way fucked up regarding engines in vehicles long before the smartphone became popular.

I tried to get the owner of the ambulance company to look at the high top Mercedes version of the Sprinter when they first hit the US because they had a diesel offering. He looked at the HP and torque numbers and said he would never buy anything that under powered. In the meantime, they work perfectly everywhere else.
 
Have you seen the plastic scissor jack recall GM has? https://www.autoblog.com/2021/06/18/gm-safety-recall-plastic-jacks/
How anyone can be a diehard GM fan is beyond me at this point. Liking certain models - corvettes, silverados, sure. But supporting this company? Take a good long hard look at yourself in a mirror. This company actively hates you.


^This again.

Two extra doors, and cheap credit have killed this whole thing we're all into :ROFLMAO:
I was really excited that they had an inline 6 option for the Silverado and a diesel to boot. A little more digging and the oil pump is belt driven and the transmission must be removed at 150k mi to check it. WTF?

Those extra 2 doors are convenient. As is the cheap credit. It's so hard to justify spending cash in the bank or to take away from some investment with some of these loans. We got my wife's Tacoma in a hurry, but I couldn't find a better price and probably won't find a better price for a year or so and the interest rate is much less than inflation and the returns I've got on practically all of my investments. I did want my wife to get a 1 ton truck but besides I have to admit it's convenient. It's super nice around the boat ramp too. We have most of our gear in the truck bed and prep our boats really quickly and we're in and out faster than ever at the boat ramp. The Jeep, I've got stuff on the rack and in the hatch and we're stuffed. In my 3/4 truck I keep a step stool handy for better access to the bed with a topper. Of course we both kinda wish it was a Gladiator, though I'm not sure I'd get rid of the Tacoma even if we do get a Gladiator.

I keep looking toward the horizon though and it looks like storm clouds. Even with the EVs there's stuff that makes sense, but the industry seems like its shying away from practicality and really pushing these things as like the 4th car in your home fleet. At least put like a little generator onboard and 5 or 10 gallon of fuel to recharge my batteries if I get stuck, but almost none offer something reasonable. It's the crazy hybrid or all EV. Hybrid kinda sucks from my experience, but it's not terrible. It's just overly complicated and I don't think I see much future in the hybrids.