All in the name of science

Well that is interesting as I recall a conversation you and I had on this forum about the difference in body roll between a having a high mounted track bar and triangulated four link and you said that you just adjust the sway bar size and shock tuning and be done with it. If I am missing something from that you will have to forgive me.
Correct, but had I understood the implications and how far out of context that would be taken, I'd have never had anything to do with that discussion. Especially given the antics of the fucking ignorant goddamned "experts" those discussions have fucking empowered.
You will notice I did not use the term "looser". I chose what I said carefully as looser implies that there is potentially something wrong. The number and type of points connecting the axle to the chassis has an effect of how the axle forces are transmitted through the chassis nothing more nothing less. If those forces are not being controlled by the control arms (track bar included), and springs then they have to be controlled by something else.
Which again doesn't matter that much except in the context of the painfully pedantic.
I have never said that there is any geometry out there that allows the absence of shocks or sway bars for that matter. I just believe you should make whatever adjustments you can to adjust the geometry to move the needle in the right direction before you throw shocks at it.
While no one has specifically said that there is geometry that allows one to run without shocks, the consistent poo poohing of even just using shocks as a performance enhancement points clearly to the general consensus that if shocks matter, they are just fucking band-aids and you need to fix the fucked up geometry. That is patently not true and the distinction needs to be clearly defined and it isn't.
 
After several years of wheeling with a 4” jj short arm SL, 35” tires, lockers, Fox shocks and other common upgrades I grew tired of the hopping and other bad manners of my rig. After much research I decided to go with the Savvy mid arm kit. Installed it with no other changes and went wheeling at the same trails as before. All I can say is the “drama” of steep climbs and off camber trails has been greatly reduced. The feeling is just one of much more control. Not saying the jeep didn’t have an occasional very mild hop like the mid arm setup in the video, but it never came close to the wild oscillating hopping I have had before. Some say it’s expensive but when you consider you are getting smart new frame side brackets, new upper axle mounts cleverly incorporated into trusses, large aluminum double adjustable links and 14 new Johnny joints it’s a sweet set up for the money if you ask me.
 
they are just fucking band-aids and you need to fix the fucked up geometry.
uh oh................ band aids falls on me i guess, i dropped that term.

lets change band-aids to targeted complimenting parts or pieces..... which would then equate into tuning the sys's function to be more desirable for the individual.

my dislike of the 4" SA is my own OCD. and no grounds for anyone to change anything.
 
I too have used the term band aids. When in reality that is not the correct way to look at it.
Good shocks do good shock things and sway bars do sway bar things. Those two things being installed and working properly will naturally work to help overcome shortcomings with “geometry”.
 
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I too have used the term band aids. When in reality that is not the correct way to look at it.
Good shocks do good shock things and sway bars do sway bar things. Those two things being installed and working properly will naturally work to help overcome shortcomings with “geometry”.
An important consideration should also be other benefits. Only a fool would think that I'm unable to build just about any suspension I want or incorporate any design aspect into a suspension that I cared to. I have many reasons why I choose to build a version of an upper triangulated rear 4 link. The most important after getting it to do the job of locating the axle is the value to the axle moving in a symmetrical manner. When I'm installing longer travel shocks and coil overs, I can't get them to stay off the frame and keep the tires off of them if the axle doesn't swing the same under articulation. A rear trackbar will pull that axle to one side further than the other side. That really messes with trying to keep a coil over from hitting the frame unless I want to really widen out the axle or stick on some ridiculous wheel spacers.

I'm doing an outboard right now with Fox 12's, 35's, and Rubi Moabs with 1.5" wheel spacers. Full articulation one way, the tire sidewall is rubbing the finish on the shocks while the shock body is just about to kiss the bottom of the frame cut-out on the other side. If there was a trackbar, something would have to give. Less back spacing, wider axle, something. The top of the shock can not go in any further, it is as far as it can go.
 
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There is a difference between not agreeing with and not being true...🤔
My original attraction to this forum was how much it valued the truth and the objective nature in which it endeavored to pursue that. As I knew would happen, as it grew in size, that objectivity diminished accordingly. Now it is little better than the places folks fled from due to their disgust with the lack of objectivity.

Not much different than crossing the border illegally to establish your US residency and then flying the Mexican flag of your homeland at every given opportunity while lamenting the policies of your new home. You left that shithole for a reason, stop trying to make this place like the shithole you left.
 
@jjvw (and others). I know this thread and the other one like it has been all over the place. And unfortunately I think some people have been misunderstood and in defense of their understanding of things, the threads have often gone off track into argueing instead of actually being helpful. As Mr Blaine mentioned above, I think most of us are here to learn how things work as we are trying to gain more knowledge and a better understanding for our own Jeeps. We are not 'fan bois' of any specific builder, but instead we respect all the different builders that have shared knowledge and even products with the Jeep community.

I am here because, although my Jeep handles well, I can feel that the geometry is not as well setup as it could be. Particularily at high speed. So things like Daves geometry correction brackets have appeal to me, as they appear to solve the problems I have (or think I have) at a lower cost than a full rebuild with midarms. But I am very heistant to change any geometry without doing my research. Even then, I am forced to hire out the work because I am not a welder or fabricator. So gaining a firm understanding of some basic concepts is very helpful since it is unlikely I will be able to take my Jeep out to the west coast to have one of the better known guys do the work for me and there is not a knowledgeable 4x4 shop in the area that I am aware of. So I for one greatly appreciate all the effort and time that folks like you and Mr Blaine and Dave have put into helping us understand what certain products do and don't do.

So to get to my question. I think I have a grasp on what you are saying in regards to short arm vs geometry brackets vs mid arm. But for clarity please let me know if I understand you correctly.

My basic understanding is that the factory short arms are going to be fine for most people until around 4" of lift. At which point some sort of geometry correction is needed. At this point it seems that for the serious offroader, the Savvy Mid Arm solution is likely the best designed and most complete solution available. However, there are two instances where things are muddy for me and I don't understand the best solution.

1) My first point of confusion is at highway driving. I live in the flat lands of ND and I drive my Jeep at 80 mph 1000 miles each way to Colorado every couple of years to do trail riding. So my needs are obviously different than others. How would you compare your mid arms performance in a high speed emergency lane menever to a similarly lifted TJ with stock arm locations but maybe a raised rear trackbar bracket. How do you think geometry brackets would compare in Interstate driving. I get the impression from comments above that the Savvy mid arm is stable at interstate speeds, but I would still love to hear your opinion.

2) Is it your opinion that geometry brackets provide no value and do not work, or is it only that for the amount of effort it takes to install them you are better off going all the way to a mid arm setup?
 
@jjvw (and others). I know this thread and the other one like it has been all over the place. And unfortunately I think some people have been misunderstood and in defense of their understanding of things, the threads have often gone off track into argueing instead of actually being helpful. As Mr Blaine mentioned above, I think most of us are here to learn how things work as we are trying to gain more knowledge and a better understanding for our own Jeeps. We are not 'fan bois' of any specific builder, but instead we respect all the different builders that have shared knowledge and even products with the Jeep community.

I am here because, although my Jeep handles well, I can feel that the geometry is not as well setup as it could be. Particularily at high speed. So things like Daves geometry correction brackets have appeal to me, as they appear to solve the problems I have (or think I have) at a lower cost than a full rebuild with midarms. But I am very heistant to change any geometry without doing my research. Even then, I am forced to hire out the work because I am not a welder or fabricator. So gaining a firm understanding of some basic concepts is very helpful since it is unlikely I will be able to take my Jeep out to the west coast to have one of the better known guys do the work for me and there is not a knowledgeable 4x4 shop in the area that I am aware of. So I for one greatly appreciate all the effort and time that folks like you and Mr Blaine and Dave have put into helping us understand what certain products do and don't do.

So to get to my question. I think I have a grasp on what you are saying in regards to short arm vs geometry brackets vs mid arm. But for clarity please let me know if I understand you correctly.

My basic understanding is that the factory short arms are going to be fine for most people until around 4" of lift. At which point some sort of geometry correction is needed. At this point it seems that for the serious offroader, the Savvy Mid Arm solution is likely the best designed and most complete solution available. However, there are two instances where things are muddy for me and I don't understand the best solution.

1) My first point of confusion is at highway driving. I live in the flat lands of ND and I drive my Jeep at 80 mph 1000 miles each way to Colorado every couple of years to do trail riding. So my needs are obviously different than others. How would you compare your mid arms performance in a high speed emergency lane menever to a similarly lifted TJ with stock arm locations but maybe a raised rear trackbar bracket. How do you think geometry brackets would compare in Interstate driving. I get the impression from comments above that the Savvy mid arm is stable at interstate speeds, but I would still love to hear your opinion.

2) Is it your opinion that geometry brackets provide no value and do not work, or is it only that for the amount of effort it takes to install them you are better off going all the way to a mid arm setup?
#1) I have been daily driving my TJ for almost 8 years starting from stock to whatever it is now. For the first many months of the mid arm that was the only change from the prior setup. It didn't change how I drove. I was still doing 75mph on the highway the same as I did before. About a year later came the rear outboard with an early AllTech tune. That was the single most significant change and improvement in how the Jeep handled.

A few years later came the Swayloc to replace the Antirock. That was a noticable improvement as well, but not at much as the rear shocks created.

Then I was able to get an updated version of the rear shock tune which was as dramatic as the initial outboard was; followed by installing the front shocks with a matching tune. That was as dramatic a change as all previous shock work I had done. This experience with shocks is why I am such a believer in shocks. No other change I have done has improved the Jeep across the board as the shocks have.

#2) I understand what the Nth style geo correction does. I also know what certain selling points of it are solutions to non-problems. I have also seen how it behaves on the trail. The only improvement it provides that I can believe in is the increased roll center. However, I am deeply suspicious of the significance of this improvement given how often people are already raising their rear track bar brackets later in their builds and never comment about the raised roll center. Then we have companies like Metalcloak who have all kinds of marketing BS about improving the ride, yet one of the features of their rear track bar is not needing to use a raised axle bracket. Yet how often do we read complaints about a low roll center. I do believe the increased RC is an improvement. I do not believe it is anything that a good shock can't also achieve through it's normal movement control.

This is why I strongly believe that an Nth style GC is misplaced effort. And it is not a small amount of effort. Good shocks will address the very things that GC actually does and then some. We already know that GC hops off road. So when the desire to fix that behavior becomes important, then for a bit more effort fix it with something we know can actually do it.

As I have said in all similar discussions, the real issue at hand is the money.
 
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Thanks jjvw. Thats more or less as I understood what you were saying. But it was getting hard to hear it through all the noise.

I agree that to some extent good shocks can overcome poor geometry. For example, I think a good shock could help slow the motion of a bounce to get things under control. I also think that a stiffer shock could pick up where a low roll center allows to much body roll, but at the expense of a slightly firmer shock. Propery geometry of course is the best solution. But as you said, the real issue is the money. For the money, I can see your point of buying better shocks.

Now I kinda regret that I just purchased Bilstiens again instead of the Savvy/Fox. But it was a matter of adding another 1/2" of bumpstop to fit the shock or getting what fit. That and with Covid, what was in stock at the time. But I personally really like how the Bilstein handle. As pointed out above, they help a little with my low roll center. (2" raised rear bracket on 3" lfit) So they work for me. Oh and did I mention the BIlstien are cheaper. There's that money thing again. Maybe I will try the Savvy in 3-4 years. That seems to be the life I get out of Bilstien.

Where are you located at in CO. I'm going to be out there in July.
 
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I'll try to do that as time gets a little closer and everything is confirmed. This year its kind of a chaotic trip for us. We have a Jeeping friend from MN who is helping his dad build a house near Cotipaxi (west of Pueblo). So things are a little uncertain depending on how things are going for him. But we expect to be down there in the middle of July. Its a different part of the state than I have visited before. So we might check out the sand dunes and things in that area before we go over to the more familiar trails of the San Juans.

I'll send a PM when we get a little closer to the time. Maybe we can find a trail closer to you and get in a day together on my way in or out of CO. Unless you know of some good trails in the Cotopaxi or Salida area we should check out. We'll have to be in touch to see how far you want to drive.
 
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