Brake bleeding problem

Okay thank you, I was doing that exactly as you said but I was going from front left and would finish at left rear, do you think that could be why my pedals are spongy

I recently learned to not bleed the brakes using the "pump and hold method."

Instead, have someone sit in the vehicle without touching the pedal. Crack open the rear-passenger bleeder and have them push the pedal to the floor and hold it until you close the bleeder and tell them to release. (repeat)

Rear Passenger
Rear Driver
Front Passenger
Front Driver

Then come back the next day after it has sat overnight without the brakes being touched.

Do the process again but only 1 time (preferably) per corner to ensure the last bit of air that has accumulated enough to form a bubble is out.

This is how I did it with good results...using what I recall from Blaine's directions.
 
Observation is a more appropriate word. And in hydraulics it's all about ratios and area . When it come to folk lore , the one I've dealt with is the " upgrade "
of wider brake drums and shoes stopping you so much better. Longer lasting , sure , but without increasing diameter , the leverage ratio remains unchanged
and the stopping power is unchanged.

They did similar with the TJ rear discs. If you compare the pads between the TJ and the Ford 8.8 which use essentially the same caliper, there is twice the surface area in pad's contact face. They don't stop any better, they just last a bit longer.
 
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You can and should drive it. We are just getting the last tiny bit of sponginess out of the pedal.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I should have worded that better...you want to bleed the brakes that last bit after the vehicle has sat a while after its last use. (so the bubble accumulates before you go back in there).

I didn't know about this method until recently, but it makes good sense.

@mrblaine would it be worthwhile to periodically (e.g., once/twice a year) crack each corner open for a single pump?
 
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I recently learned to not bleed the brakes using the "pump and hold method."

Instead, have someone sit in the vehicle without touching the pedal. Crack open the rear-passenger bleeder and have them push the pedal to the floor and hold it until you close the bleeder and tell them to release. (repeat)

Rear Passenger
Rear Driver
Front Passenger
Front Driver

Then come back the next day after it has sat overnight without the brakes being touched.

Do the process again but only 1 time (preferably) per corner to ensure the last bit of air that has accumulated enough to form a bubble is out.

This is how I did it with good results...using what I recall from Blaine's directions.
okay so I open the valve, when the valve is open i tell them to push and they just slam the pedal down and hold it down until i close it and do that about 3 times each side? then I leave my brakes for a while and do it again, 1 time each side
 
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okay so I open the valve, when the valve is open i tell them to push and they just slam the pedal down and hold it down until i close it and do that about 3 times each side? then I leave my brakes for a while and do it again, 1 time each side

IMG_3406.jpeg


Source: Post #5 in this thread
 
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Hell, Ive always done cloest to furthest
Seems Jeeps are done differently??

Thats news to me too

Likely due to the switch to the front half of master cylinder bore being used for the rear brake circuit on the TJ. Older masters in some stuff use a chambered reservoir with a larger and smaller section for front and rear circuits and generally the larger chamber is in the front. The TJ has a common reservoir to both circuits.

That said, other than some adherence to folk lore, I can't come up with a solid reason why it matters where you start.
 
you got fluid coming out of the other 3 wheels, right? I hesitate to attempt to fake any level of brakes knowledge knowing Blaine is in this thread, but the m/c only has 2 ports so if you're only not getting fluid out of one wheel I would doubt that the m/c is the issue. I believe the front brakes each have their own port on the combo block, so it could be that the issue is there if not in the line or at the caliper itself. But I would seriously doubt the m/c is the issue here.

If you feel like spilling a bunch of brake fluid you could disconnect the line to the front right on the combo block and hit the brakes. If you get fluid out, your problem is further downstream. I guess I might then disconnect the line at the caliper to see if if its the line or the caliper. And as a last resort I'd completely remove the bleeder screw to see if you get fluid out of the caliper. Although I might actually try that last step first now that I think about it.

Okay so i changed the calipers and the caliper lines, I bled the brakes exactly as blaine instructed, But I now have 0 brake pressure at all. Where should i look/do now? the brake light is on, i had the key on while bleeding the brakes too
 
Okay so i changed the calipers and the caliper lines, I bled the brakes exactly as blaine instructed, But I now have 0 brake pressure at all. Where should i look/do now? the brake light is on, i had the key on while bleeding the brakes too

Try putting the bleed screws on top this time. If the light comes on, you have to stop and shift the shuttle back to turn off the dash light so no, not quite how I instructed.
 
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Are your calipers installed with the bleeder at the top?

For the TL,DR crowd, our method is below in bold if you want to skip the rest of the drivel.

Pumping the pedal on modern masters aerates the fluid. The more you pump, the more tiny bubbles you get in the fluid. That is bad and good. Bad because fluid shouldn't have tiny air bubbles in it, good because you can use that to tell when you have fluid from the master at each corner when you do a flush. When you see the tiny bubbles in the clear hose. Go to the next corner.
My method that we use is what works for us, every single time. Others do it lots of different ways, I've tried most of them and I'm not able to make them work as well as a good 2 person manual bleed. They doesn't mean they don't work or aren't successful for others, I just can't make any of them work every time.

The problem with vacuum bleeders is sealing the straight threads of the bleeder screw at each wheel cylinder.
The problem with speed bleeders is you can't tell if you have a problem because you aren't able to see the flow and rate at each corner.
The problem with pressure bleeders is you can't always get enough pressure to induce the turbulence needed to get the crap out of the piston bores.
The problem with reverse pressure bleeding is you can push the crap that is in the piston bores up into the combo valve and master bore.

Here is ours again-

Cap off of the master and I flip it upside down and lay it back over the opening to slow down a splash that can happen. If the cap isn't off or loosened, a fast drop in reservoir level can produce a vacuum which makes the bleeding process harder. While the cap is vented, it is a very small vent designed to allow the pressure in the reservoir to equalize to atmospheric without leaking fluid. In case you ever wondered why some of the caps look the way they do.

View attachment 536283

Fluid level full in the master reservoir.

Engine off, key on to power up the dash, parking brake off. You need to know if the brake light is tripping which indicates a shifted shuttle valve.

The valve moves when the pressure is too high on one side. The low pressure side is being closed off or mostly closed off to prevent loss of fluid in the event of a leak. Good safety feature, terrible for brake bleeding. While we do use a lock out tool that replaces the switch in the combo valve to stop the shuttle from moving, we bled 100's of rigs before that and always managed to get it done easily. In fact, I kinda like not using one because that tells me the system is functioning, the valve will move when needed, and the circuit is good so it will work when it should. Roughly around 03-04, they changed something about the switch. Before then, we never had a single instance of the valve shifting during bleeding. After that, we get some rigs that had to have the dash light reset at every pedal push.

What put us onto looking for a better way or to bleed with the key on was I could hear the valve in the combo block clicking as it shifted.

I use a bottle to collect the fluid and a clear hose on the bleed screw. The hose end in the bottle does not have to be under fluid. That is an old wive's tale. If you want to verify why, simply open a bleeder and watch what happens. Fluid will run out which means air is not going in and again, we still have the issue of not being able to seal straight threads at the bleed screw so even if the requirement was to have the hose in fluid to stop air from going into the caliper, it would still get in around the threads, it doesn't. Even if it did, the bleeder is the high point, fluid would push the air up to the bleeder inside the caliper and it would leave at the next bleed cycle exactly as designed.

If you are not having the helper push the pedal down enthusiastically enough that you have to hold the hose on the bleed screw, then they need to do so with some more enthusiasm. A pedal push down should squirt fluid out of the bleeder and across the floor 3-5 feet if you didn't have the hose in place.

1- you open bleed screw with as wide a swing as possible
2- helper pushes pedal to the floor and holds it at the bottom
3- close bleed screw and tell the helper to let the pedal up.

Repeat 5-7 times per corner.


I start with a gravity bleed. (remember the hose in fluid silliness?) When I have fluid dripping out of the bleeder at each corner, I know I can start the manual bleed. You can also use the gravity bleed to diagnose. If you open the bleeder on a full system and fluid doesn't come out after enough time that it should have, there is a problem.

The tiny bubbles in the fluid will coalesce after some time. A bleed the next day of 1-2 pumps per corner typically gets rid of them. If you do more pumps, you are putting more bubbles in the fluid. Granted, they will work their way back up into the reservoir or corner eventually but we don't need that if we don't have to.

If you have a problem that indicates there is air in the system, stop and find the problem. More bleeding isn't going to fix it. More bleeding just wastes time and fluid and will not ever solve a problem. Bleeding just gets air out of the system and if the above method doesn't do that, then the problem will not be fixed, found, or solved by doing more of it.

Last bit of annoyance I deal with frequently has to do with bench bleeding masters. If you could do it in the vehicle, it wouldn't be called bench bleeding. ;)

So i have no pedal pressure after doing everything, I think i may have installed the calipers the wrong side because i’m seeing the bleeder screw at the bottom, when i finished everything my brake light was on and when I pull up the parking brake and pump the pedal hard a bunch and put the brake back down, it turns off the light, i’m so confused 😭
 
Try putting the bleed screws on top this time. If the light comes on, you have to stop and shift the shuttle back to turn off the dash light so no, not quite how I instructed.
Sooooo if i bled and the bleeder screws are at the bottom, doesn’t that mean I have to switch the calipers? and to reset the brake light do I reset it when it comes on? and how exactly would I do that
 
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Try putting the bleed screws on top this time. If the light comes on, you have to stop and shift the shuttle back to turn off the dash light so no, not quite how I instructed.

I’m trying to find where you said how to reset the shuttle in the combo block, do i take out the switch connected to it and push it over?
 
I’m trying to find where you said how to reset the shuttle in the combo block, do i take out the switch connected to it and push it over?

The shuttle shifts when the differential pressure is too high on one side so the higher pressure shoves it to the low pressure side to close off or try to close off the port that has what resembles a leak to try and keep some brakes working.

The pressure has to be equalized to move it back to center and turn the dash light off. With the bleeders closed, stomp the pedal with the key on and dash powered up, motor off. If that doesn't work, go to the end that you were NOT bleeding, open a bleeder there and try the pedal stomp again. If neither of those work, you get to take it apart and manually shift it.

What did you do to stop the fluid from draining out of the system while you installed new brake hoses and calipers?
 
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The shuttle shifts when the differential pressure is too high on one side so the higher pressure shoves it to the low pressure side to close off or try to close off the port that has what resembles a leak to try and keep some brakes working.

The pressure has to be equalized to move it back to center and turn the dash light off. With the bleeders closed, stomp the pedal with the key on and dash powered up, motor off. If that doesn't work, go to the end that you were NOT bleeding, open a bleeder there and try the pedal stomp again. If neither of those work, you get to take it apart and manually shift it.

What did you do to stop the fluid from draining out of the system while you installed new brake hoses and calipers?

😔 I did not do much, practically no liquid was coming out when i changed the lines and calipers so I wasn’t thinking much of it
 
😔 I did not do much, practically no liquid was coming out when i changed the lines and calipers so I wasn’t thinking much of it

Well, if that is the case and the dash light was on when you started to bleed the new stuff, it means the shuttle was shutting off the front circuit and the flow out of each caliper should have been very low and the gravity bleed to fill them either took forever or didn't work.

Or, the master reservoir was already too low when you started. For future reference, you can prop a stick between the brake pedal and front of the seat to hold the pedal down about an inch or so. That will stop the master from draining.
 
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