Bull Dawg LJ Hardtop Initial Impressions

Scout425

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Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
50
Location
Fairbanks, AK
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Let me start with a quick disclaimer. I have not/will not be compensated for any product information I provide. I am merely an LJ fan that hopes to provide objective feedback on a new product that could help extend the life, utility and daily usefulness of our beloved LJs. I did purchase my hardtop from Bull Dawg MFG. I purchased my top for ~$3300 The starting price for the top is $2,400 and I added the additional $250 defroster, $350 rack that has a 225lb limit and paid $150 to have the top installed at their factory in Hixson, TN. If you believe this is too much for a new production top, that’s fine. Feel free to keep that to yourself. I believe it's worth it for the added convenience and the fact that it is new vs a 14+ year old OEM top. But to each their own.

I daily drive my LJ to work as well as hit the local ponds just about every day. Well carrying all my junk and three (pricey) fishing poles in a soft top was not the ideal solution. Neither was pulling an ultralight trailer with a kayak to work every day. In late May saw a post in the LJ Owners FB page that started it all. I had found a way to haul my kayak, rods (a work in progress. Will most likely add a Thule Rod Locker or conduit pipe) and make the Jeep more accommodating for the family which includes an 8yr old daughter, 2 yr old Husky and 6-month-old Lab. The dogs also go everywhere we can legally take them.

So, on 01 June 20 I called Bull Dawg MFG and spoke with Mike Sherman about the tops design and progress. Later that day I called back and placed my order, unbeknownst to my wife at the time (she still thinks I’m going to sell my KLR650 to pay for the top :ROFLMAO:. Mike was very helpful during the design process and we talked at length a handful of times about the top and he was always keen to make sure the top would be what I wanted. I settled on the standard top vs the Highlander Top. I also opted for the defroster and 225lb Perrycraft roof rack. At the time I believe there was only 2 options but now there are 5 different roof rack options. More to follow on this one.

On 15 Aug 20 I made the drive to Hixson, TN to pick up my new top. I was greeted by Jason who showed me the top and explained how he and the team at BD had designed and manufactured the top as well as a short tour of the factory. Mike seems to have a talented group of guys under him that are highly motivated, even if it is a Saturday morning. After a bit over an hour the install was compete and Jason walked me through the top again and answered all my question on how the wiring was run and other tidbits. Finally, the long wait was over.
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Finally, on to what you’re here for, objective criticism of the new Bull Dawg MFG LJ hardtop.

Exterior Fit and Finish

After some back and forth with Mike, I settled on their “Shiny” black exterior. I would maybe consider it a satin. Either way I was looking for something that would be close to OEM in terms of matte vs bling. I feel that their standard coloring is spot on. In the pictures below you will see some dark black spots. That is just water that I was too impatient to wait on before getting some pictures for this write up. The only gripe that I had with the exterior was that the rubber seal on the rear window was a bit too long. A few seconds with a box cutter and it was improved though.
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I removed my tire to make access easier. Also looking at just strapping it into the tub when off road. Speaking of which, some folks have raised concerns about the side window handles sticking out and being broken by limbs and such. I plan to just remove the top when offroad. No need to risk breaking a brand new top. Maybe future generations will include flush mount handles but I still wouldn't risk it.
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An easy improvement that can be made would be key matching all of the locks. On my top the side windows match but the rear has its own key. And I know this one is a bit knit picky but the handles on the left and rear rotate interiorly to open and the right rotates anteriorly. I haven’t played with them yet, but I plan to swap the handles around if possible to remedy this. It’ll drive me nuts.
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Side access has been great for loading the kid and chucking random things in the back.
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The middle sliding windows seemed odd when I first heard of them but for me they are perfect for keeping my crazy husky’s limbs in the ride at all times.
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Note: The rubber caps on the aluminum rails pops of quite easily. May want to glue or screw it down to keep them attached and stop junk from accumulating in the bars over time.
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I found these little hoop guys on top. I imagine the are for bungee cords/tie down points. At least they seem about perfect for it. The eyelet slides to the left to the screw you see and a few inches to the right to the end of the rail.

I guess I can only upload 20 pictures at a time. Part II below.


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Before
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After (Round 2 needed)
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Interior Fit and Finish


I opted for the standard grey interior which has black spackling. I believe all the tops come with one LED dome light that can be mounted anywhere.
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The PVC pipes are my el cheapo rod holders. I had meant to experiment with different positions and clean them up a bit, but this worked for about $2 so I called it good and left them as is. I will say, I like that this location keeps my reels much cleaner than a truck bed or bumper mount. It worked well with my soft top but I don’t think I'll be driving down the road with my new rear window open. I plan to see if I can move the pipes forward and make a mount that hangs down from the ceiling. Not sure if it will impede visibility or if it will make enough room for 7+ foot poles. More to follow.
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Here is my 7’ 1” MH rod hanging out the back. Not a viable option in my opinion.

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It’s a bit hard to get a good pic but here is the trunk area at night with the dome light on. The strange orange colors are from a streetlamp down the driveway.

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Here you can also see the three attachment cams at the windshield. These and the thumbscrews on the tub need adjustment within a few hours after install as the weather seal settles. Also, I had to flip my mirror right side up in order to increase visibility out the back. How strange.

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The center OEM tie down is replaced for Bull Dawgs install. Bull Dawg did supply a piece of trim to cover this. Pictured below.

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I chose to add the defroster option to my top as well. My job requires that I move somewhat frequently, and I wanted to have a little cold weather capability added. Not sure if a wiper is in the future but that could be useful as well.

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Here is the defroster switch and timer light supplied by BD. It works for now but I plan to upgrade my console later with something like what 12V guy makes. I just need a lot more stuff hooked to the switches that I don’t have before that happens.

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Here is the battery tie in for the defroster.

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Here is the fuze tie. I didn't check this but I was told that the switch is tied to the wiper fuze to ensure it will not be active when the key is off.

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Each side of the rear has 4x thumbscrews on that attach the top to the tub. These need to be adjusted as the seal settles during break in. Note the drop of water next to the thumbscrew. I believe it came through the sliding window’s felt-ish seal while washing the Jeep. Not a concern and the downpour I drove through on the way home did not present any issues for the top.



Improvements/concerns.

One of my side window struts popped off today and refuses to stay connected when closing the window. It looks like the bracket that attaches the strut to the window is bending with use. I believe these brackets need to be made of thicker material or the geometry of the hinge needs to be modified to alleviate this. By the time I publish this, I will have contacted Mike and I am sure we will find a way to resolve my issue.
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The bracket here on the left is fairly straight, but you can see that the others are all and different degrees of twisting or bending. I will admit that I have done a poor job of taking it easy and using both hands while closing the windows. Mike is aware of the issue as they have the same problem with their company vehicles. They are working to find a viable solution already.

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Overall, I am extremely happy with the top. I knew there may be some hiccups in the beginning since it is a new design. But I am more than comfortable with that knowing that Mike and Bull Dawg will stand behind their product and work to make it the best they can. If you have any questions of me let me know. I have also submitted a few question to Mike that I have already received from the LJ Owners FB Group. I hope to answer them soon. I plan to keep updating this thread with developments and long-term tests.
 
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Good looking top. I like the opening of the side windows. And yes flush style latches on the sides would look better to me. Can the sides be ordered without the slider? And the rear hatch opening without having to open the tailgate is nice but with a spare tire what's the point. I think with a little feedback and tweaking it could be great. Thanks for the pics.
 
Great write up, was hoping someone on here would purchase their top. Now if we can get them to make it in the factory khaki color. Been trying to influence that via their FB site.
 
Good looking top. I like the opening of the side windows. And yes flush style latches on the sides would look better to me. Can the sides be ordered without the slider? And the rear hatch opening without having to open the tailgate is nice but with a spare tire what's the point. I think with a little feedback and tweaking it could be great. Thanks for the pics.
as of now they only offer the window with the slider. If there is enough interest maybe they will offer both.
 
I was thinking if a rear sliding window wouldn't be bad, sorta like pickup trucks have, better air flow. You'd lose the defroster option, but better than driving around with the back window open.

Are the windows easily removable Scout?
 
I was thinking if a rear sliding window wouldn't be bad, sorta like pickup trucks have, better air flow. You'd lose the defroster option, but better than driving around with the back window open.

Are the windows easily removable Scout?
The LJ model does not have removable windows. I know some of their other tops (TJ or JK, not sure which) have removable windows.
 
That tops looks really good. I'd like to see a Khaki color option too. Interested in seeing your long term evaluation.

Can you get the interior without the spackling effect? Just plain?

Were you the first customer to purchase one?
 
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That tops looks really good. I'd like to see a Khaki color option too. Interested in seeing your long term evaluation.

Can you get the interior without the spackling effect? Just plain?

Were you the first customer to purchase one?
Ive not seen any solid color options from them but I would imaging they can do what ever you want based off their other tops custom color options.
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I was not the first customer to order one. A guy from out west beat me to it but I guess he cant make the trip to the factory to have it installed yet. His Jeep is at their shop waiting for him. I got lucky and got mine on first though. Sorry Ernie.
 
Here are a few questions that I got back from Mike at Bull Dawg.

1. Will a flush mount handle be possible in the future?
I've brought this up to every window company we have used and even those we don't use. None of them would even consider satisfying my request for a concealed latch, nor did they give me a reason as to why. Sometimes I get the feeling the window companies are all just too large and busy to even entertain the thought of coming out with anything new for a customer......very annoying.

2) Will a solid widow option be available? Sans slider? For right now we plan on just offering the dual use window you have on your Jeep.
If demand and sales dictate we need to add this as an option, we will.

3) Can the top go through an automated carwash? (I would be hesitant to try it due to the handles. I’ve also never done that in a Jeep so it just feels wrong, like the mirror.)
This is certainly a common question I am asked and my first response is usually, "Don't Take Your Vehicle Through An Automated Car Wash, Ever". I'm not a fan of automated car washes for obvious and maybe not so obvious reasons. Whether you're aware or not, these car washes are not nice, not forgiving, not thorough and will ruin your vehicle's paint job over time. I am, however, about as particular of a person as you will ever find and am very detail oriented to say the least.

4) Can the side windows be retrofitted to an OEM top in the future? Once again, I'm asked this all the time. If I were very smart(which I do not claim to be) we would have made the windows available as a retrofit to existing Jeep hardtops. In my own defense.....it sounds much easier than it is.

5) How much does the regular and highlander top weight? Can you give a comparison against OEM? We have generally found that the highlander tops(TJ's and JK's) weight approximately 50to 60lbs more than the standard tops do. As you are aware by now, our standard tops blow the OEM top out of the water when it comes to strength, rigidity, etc. I've asked the guys in the back to weigh each of the tops and get back to me with the weights. I should be able to get something for you in the next couple days.
 
Having been involved in a number of hardtop and hardtop window projects and products I can offer a bit more info on a few of these points.

Here are a few questions that I got back from Mike at Bull Dawg.


1. Will a flush mount handle be possible in the future?

I've brought this up to every window company we have used and even those we don't use. None of them would even consider satisfying my request for a concealed latch, nor did they give me a reason as to why. Sometimes I get the feeling the window companies are all just too large and busy to even entertain the thought of coming out with anything new for a customer......very annoying.

It's true that most RV window manufacturers are too busy with volume RV orders to bother with small custom orders, but manufacturers who are willing to do custom things in smaller quantities do exist. I've been involved in a JK/JL cargo window design project for a company and we got working prototypes done just before the virus shutdown. We used flush latches for the prototypes:



If a window manufacturer is willing to work on something like this, their engineers will likely say that they can't support flush latches because the hole in the glass is too large and has square corners (most flush latches are rectangular). The square corners cause stress points that can cause the tempered glass to shatter. It's a solvable problem though if the window company is willing to work on it.

4) Can the side windows be retrofitted to an OEM top in the future? Once again, I'm asked this all the time. If I were very smart(which I do not claim to be) we would have made the windows available as a retrofit to existing Jeep hardtops. In my own defense.....it sounds much easier than it is.

The reason is sounds much easier than it is is because of two things - RV windows require a flat mounting surface and the top and bottom of the window opening to be parallel. Wrangler hardtop windows are neither. I designed JK and JL slider windows kits for a company a few years ago and designed a "retrofit kit" to provide the flat and parallel mounting surface. The retrofit kit for the JK and JL is fairly simple to manufacture so it's not prohibitively expensive and a set of sliders for a JK or JL hardtop can be offered at an affordable price. In this JKU photo the retrofit kit is visible around the window frame:

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The TJ and LJ hardtops aren't as simple to create a retrofit kit for because the compound curves and the way the factory glass installs make it more difficult, but it is possible. Back when I was working on the above retrofit kits I also designed a retrofit kit for the TJ and the LJ and the company I did the kits for decided that there wouldn't be enough demand for those kits at the higher price that would be required for the retrofit kit.
 
Having been involved in a number of hardtop and hardtop window projects and products I can offer a bit more info on a few of these points.



It's true that most RV window manufacturers are too busy with volume RV orders to bother with small custom orders, but manufacturers who are willing to do custom things in smaller quantities do exist. I've been involved in a JK/JL cargo window design project for a company and we got working prototypes done just before the virus shutdown. We used flush latches for the prototypes:



If a window manufacturer is willing to work on something like this, their engineers will likely say that they can't support flush latches because the hole in the glass is too large and has square corners (most flush latches are rectangular). The square corners cause stress points that can cause the tempered glass to shatter. It's a solvable problem though if the window company is willing to work on it.



The reason is sounds much easier than it is is because of two things - RV windows require a flat mounting surface and the top and bottom of the window opening to be parallel. Wrangler hardtop windows are neither. I designed JK and JL slider windows kits for a company a few years ago and designed a "retrofit kit" to provide the flat and parallel mounting surface. The retrofit kit for the JK and JL is fairly simple to manufacture so it's not prohibitively expensive and a set of sliders for a JK or JL hardtop can be offered at an affordable price. In this JKU photo the retrofit kit is visible around the window frame:

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The TJ and LJ hardtops aren't as simple to create a retrofit kit for because the compound curves and the way the factory glass installs make it more difficult, but it is possible. Back when I was working on the above retrofit kits I also designed a retrofit kit for the TJ and the LJ and the company I did the kits for decided that there wouldn't be enough demand for those kits at the higher price that would be required for the retrofit kit.
Thanks for the information. I do like those handles you used. Maybe one day those will be the standard. One can only hope.
 
I recently became aware of these tops on this forum and looked them up. Nothing on their website about LJ tops but several updates on their Facebook page. I like the idea of a brand new top for my LJ. I would be much much more interested if their LJ windows were the same as their TJ windows. That is, the flip up TJ windows do not have a slider and are easily removable. The side flip up windows would be great for accessing items in the back of the Jeep. Until that is available I will keep my $. For those worried about breaking the side window handles they do offer a fixed window, but again only in the TJ version, not the LJ.
 
I recently became aware of these tops on this forum and looked them up. Nothing on their website about LJ tops but several updates on their Facebook page. I like the idea of a brand new top for my LJ. I would be much much more interested if their LJ windows were the same as their TJ windows. That is, the flip up TJ windows do not have a slider and are easily removable. The side flip up windows would be great for accessing items in the back of the Jeep. Until that is available I will keep my $. For those worried about breaking the side window handles they do offer a fixed window, but again only in the TJ version, not the LJ.
I was looking the how the windows are installed into the frame and it looks like the side windows could be easily removed (but not recommended by the manufacturer). The main problem is the rear window. The hinge for the rear is recessed so the top itself would block the rear from sliding off.
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It appears that you might be able to remove this screw and slide the hinge off. Dont think Ill be trying it though.
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Update on the top:
Bulldawg mailed some replacement 30lb struts vs the original 40lb struts for the side windows. This remedied the issue with the brackets bending.

The defroster has also stopped working. I am pretty sure it’s just a loose wire as it was working intermittently on bumpy gravel roads a few weeks ago. Honestly I havent taken the time to look at it as I have been busy fishing and hunting. The defrost was also just a nice to have for the future as its not really necessary here in GA.

Still happy with my purchase and love being able to carry my kayak everyday. Also, the sliding windows are a major plus when carrying a smelly hog in the back.
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I've been keeping an eye on BullDawgs site. I provided them the Dark Khaki paint code via their Facebook site and they said they were going to add that as a top color option. I've never been a hard top fan but now im considering it for the winters and road trips. Glad to hear the top is still meeting your expectations!
 
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A new BullDawg top was put on our TJ shortly before we picked it up. This is my first TJ so I don't have knowledge of the original top but this one seems to be very well made and I think it looks great on the Jeep. Mine has fixed windows on the sides that do not pop up.
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