Daily Driver, Go Where I Want To Build

[jjvw]

The SwayLoc is on its loosest setting in street mode and I am about a third of the way through the high and low speed adjusters trying to find where the small event harshness starts to appear.

With a ways to go, these reservoirs are already dramatically nicer than the previous shock setup. The looser swaybar reduces the side to side jitters normally associated with a compromise in more body roll. Except that the shocks are doing a much better job at mitigating body roll. Brake dive and torque roll were already minor, but now they are nearly non-existent.

The Jeep stays very flat and controlled while powering hard through sharp turns. Hitting big dips and bumps fast are even less noticeable than before. Hard steering and hard braking is more confidence inspiring.

The first round of tuned Foxes, big brakes, the hydro assist, the automatic with the recent regear have all each been transformative. And all of these compliment the other to create a wonderfully fun and well behaved Jeep.

With only a couple hours of driving and adjusting so far, the DSC reservoirs are outshining everything else with how much they are improving the Jeep across the board.

 

[mrblaine]

The SwayLoc is on its loosest setting in street mode and I am about a third of the way through the high and low speed adjusters trying to find where the small event harshness starts to appear.

With a ways to go, these reservoirs are already dramatically nicer than the previous shock setup. The looser swaybar reduces the side to side jitters normally associated with more body roll. Except that the shocks are doing a much better job at mitigating body roll. Brake dive and torque roll were already minor, but now they are nearly non-existent.

The Jeep stays very flat and controlled while powering hard through sharp turns. Hitting big dips and bumps fast are even less noticeable than before. Hard steering and hard braking is more confidence inspiring.

The first round of tuned Foxes, big brakes, the hydro assist, the automatic with the recent regear have all each been transformative. And all of these compliment the other to create a wonderfully fun and well behaved Jeep.

With only a couple hours of driving and adjusting so far, the DSC reservoirs are outshining everything else with how much they are improving the Jeep across the board.

Of notable importance, it should be clarified that these are not off the shelf reservoirs, they have also been tuned by Wayne at All Tech.

 

[jjvw]

I have thoughts on driving without shocks.

During the time my shocks were with All Tech, I drove the Jeep multiple times around town with only the SwayLoc and factory rear sway bar to control movement.

First and foremost, this argument that springs have any effect on the ride quality is ridiculous.

Second and secondmost, the Jeep was no longer fun to drive. There was no more not caring what I drove through or powering my way through turns and corners. I realized very early that I needed to keep the speed down and be cautious and deliberate in my driving if for no other fear than to make sure the springs don't fall out. That eventually became a comparatively minor fear to have.

At best, the Jeep rode like a smooth cloud when driving on smooth roads. Body roll was significant, with only the sway bars working to restrain it. Any dips, bumps and ruts could quickly turn into big heaving oscillations. And it was very unpredictable how severe these oscillations would be, even on the same stretches of road at similar speeds.

The worst event was immediate and uncontrollable chaos that was equally informative and educational as to why any shock damping is better than no shock damping.

While traveling in a straight line at about 25-30mph, I drove over a long rough rut of recent construction patch on the driver's side. With very little warning, the oscillations escalated into a violent shaking that rotating the Jeep hard to the right. I did not steer that direction, I hung on to keep it going straight and there was nothing I could do until the tires left the rut. Then I could steer.

As best I can understand it, the road surface sent the tires and axle into a bounce, that sent the frame into a reactive bounce, with the coil springs shaking between the axle and frame. This adds up to a near complete loss of control.

In the past, I have experienced the early onset of this chaotic loss of control and drifting sideways on a heavily washboarded road at much higher speeds. But the shocks had enough left in them to offer some control to allow me to react and slow down. Now, having experienced a much fuller extent of this chaos, I can better understand what was occurring out on those farm roads.

 

[psrivats]

GI have thoughts on driving without shocks.

During the time my shocks were with All Tech, I drove the Jeep multiple times around town with only the SwayLoc and factory rear sway bar to control movement.

First and foremost, this argument that springs have any effect on the ride quality is ridiculous.

Second and secondmost, the Jeep was no longer fun to drive. There was no more not caring what I drove through or powering my way through turns and corners. I realized very early that I needed to keep the speed down and be cautious and deliberate in my driving if for no other fear than to make sure the springs don't fall out. That eventually became a comparatively minor fear to have.

At best, the Jeep rode like a smooth cloud when driving on smooth roads. Body roll was significant, with only the sway bars working to restrain it. Any dips, bumps and ruts could quickly turn into big heaving oscillations. And it was very unpredictable how severe these oscillations would be, even on the same stretches of road at similar speeds.

The worst event was immediate and uncontrollable chaos that was equally informative and educational as to why any shock damping is better than no shock damping.

While traveling in a straight line at about 25-30mph, I drove over a long rough rut of recent construction patch on the driver's side. With very little warning, the oscillations escalated into a violent shaking that rotating the Jeep hard to the right. I did not steer that direction, I hung on to keep it going straight and there was nothing I could do until the tires left the rut. Then I could steer.

As best I can understand it, the road surface sent the tires and axle into a bounce, that sent the frame into a reactive bounce, with the coil springs shaking between the axle and frame. This adds up to a near complete loss of control.

In the past, I have experienced the early onset of this chaotic loss of control and drifting sideways on a heavily washboarded road at much higher speeds. But the shocks had enough left in them to offer some control to allow me to react and slow down. Now, having experienced a much fuller extent of this chaos, I can better understand what was occurring out on those farm roads.

Excellent and clear write up. If folks are willing to listen there is a LOT to learn and understand from what you have shared here, and in the previous post where you talk about about how the sway bars and shocks need to work together, and how you can gain more in terms of ride quality control by carefully divvying up what the sway bar does and what the shock does.

 

[jjvw]

Excellent and clear write up. If folks are willing to listen there is a LOT to learn and understand from what you have shared here, and in the previous post where you talk about about how the sway bars and shocks need to work together, and how you can gain more in terms of ride quality control by carefully divvying up what the sway bar does and what the shock does.

Since the initial rear outboard in 2017 and multiple iterations of shocks and tunes since then, with each progression always being a dramatic improvement in areas other than just ride quality, I strongly believe most out there are not grasping the far reaching magnitude of what shocks can offer. When combined with several other systems like very good steering, very good brakes, a very good sway bars and the most basic regear, the totality of these all combine into something exceedingly fun to drive that should not do everything that it does.

The shocks are what tie everything together. I knew this prior to last week. Yet, what these DSCs are doing to the Jeep is in an entirely different realm from everything I knew before. They are that good.

 

[mvigo]

Since the initial rear outboard in 2017 and multiple iterations of shocks and tunes since then, with each progression always being a dramatic improvement in areas other than just ride quality, I strongly believe most out there are not grasping the far reaching magnitude of what shocks can offer. When combined with several other systems like very good steering, very good brakes, a very good sway bars and the most basic regear, the totality of these all combine into something exceedingly fun to drive that should not do everything that it does.

The shocks are what tie everything together. I knew this prior to last week. Yet, what these DSCs are doing to the Jeep is in an entirely different realm from everything I knew before. They are that good.

@jjvw I couldn't agree with you more...I don't think there is a better solution then the mid-arm, outboarding shocks, custom tuned shocks and Sway-Loc for how we use these TJ's. The performance off-road is crazy good, and the on road performance makes for such an enjoyable experience that I wish I could use it as my daily driver. Any of my jeeping pals that drive my TJ are amazed at what they are experiencing, they just can't believe it, even after they drive it...

It's too bad I can't come up with a very reliable power plant to match the suspension...

 

[psrivats]

It's too bad I can't come up with a very reliable power plant to match the suspension...

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...-5-be-mostly-plug-and-play.62880/post-1138320

 

[mvigo]

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...-5-be-mostly-plug-and-play.62880/post-1138320

I missed that thread and hadn't heard of that motor. I wouldn't even know where to begin to swap that in and I do enjoy the reliability of the 4.0. We could modify these TJ's until the cows come home but that means I wouldn't be enjoying driving it. I enjoy driving it as much as I can so I have never seriously considered a swap. The only time I wish I had more power is on the freeway and since my speeding days are over, I am resigned to being the turtle and not the hare...

 

[psrivats]

I missed that thread and hadn't heard of that motor. I wouldn't even know where to begin to swap that in and I do enjoy the reliability of the 4.0. We could modify these TJ's until the cows come home but that means I wouldn't be enjoying driving it. I enjoy driving it as much as I can so I have never seriously considered a swap. The only time I wish I had more power is on the freeway and since my speeding days are over, I am resigned to being the turtle and not the hare...

I am also guessing you haven't seen this thread. There is only one person who I would trust that I think can figure out all the painful nitty gritty details for a swap and you well know who that is. I am like you too, I am happy at about 65 (very rare 70 to overtake) on the hwy. It was a shock when I visited LA for the first time a few years ago

 

[JMT]

It was a shock when I visited LA for the first time a few years ago

AKA Ford Focus giving the bird and eyeing you in the rear view.

 

[jjvw]

@jjvw I couldn't agree with you more...I don't think there is a better solution then the mid-arm, outboarding shocks, custom tuned shocks and Sway-Loc for how we use these TJ's. The performance off-road is crazy good, and the on road performance makes for such an enjoyable experience that I wish I could use it as my daily driver. Any of my jeeping pals that drive my TJ are amazed at what they are experiencing, they just can't believe it, even after they drive it...

It's too bad I can't come up with a very reliable power plant to match the suspension...

How do we more get people to understand?

 

[mrblaine]

How do we more get people to understand?

You can't. Those that are looking, will seek it out and find it. Them that you might try to educate won't admit it because that admission means more work, more time, and more money. If you aren't willing to spend those in pursuit of something better, then you will refuse to admit they exist. We still haven't been able to move past fine tuning ride quality with springs yet. Nor have we moved past fixing crappy ride quality with suspension gymnastics.

As terrible as it sounds, I see no good path to make that which is currently elite, mainstream.

 

[hosejockey61]

How do we more get people to understand?

I think a lot of people understand what the possibility can be by reading stuff like this, but the biggest factor is always going to be money. And it is the entirety of it all. The mid arm, shocks, steering, etc. My latest trip out I was hopping again as usual trying to get up a rock pile and wondering how the mid arm would handle it.

 

[JMT]

I think a lot of people understand what the possibility can be by reading stuff like this, but the biggest factor is always going to be money. And it is the entirety of it all. The mid arm, shocks, steering, etc. My latest trip out I was hopping again as usual trying to get up a rock pile and wondering how the mid arm would handle it.

Yet we see people hopping on the forum all the time planning to get long arms installed, which involves cutting stock brackets off and going to town. Seems a small step to change the plan to a midarm. The shock argument is still like David fighting Goliath, but at least we know who wins. The steering one seems the same as shocks. Tough to convince them their new expensive steering setup is vastly inferior to stock Haltenberger.

 

[hosejockey61]

Yet we see people hopping on the forum all the time planning to get long arms installed, which involves cutting stock brackets off and going to town. Seems a small step to change the plan to a midarm. The shock argument is still like David fighting Goliath, but at least we know who wins. The steering one seems the same as shocks. Tough to convince them their new expensive steering setup is vastly inferior to stock Haltenberger.

I think the majority of those people are the new to the hobby and really don't do much research. It is interesting though. I think the more you're in the hobby, the more you want to learn about how to make things better. That's not a natural instinct when first starting out. I think instant gratification of whatever the latest trend is.

 

[JMT]

I think the majority of those people are the new to the hobby and really don't do much research. It is interesting though. I think the more you're in the hobby, the more you want to learn about how to make things better. That's not a natural instinct when first starting out. I think instant gratification of whatever the latest trend is.

What I find around our Jeep community is the tribal mentality of passing down information from the long-standing members to the newbies. They perpetuate the same old myths, but it’s what everybody else in the community is doing, so the newbies follow suit. Very few have any interest when I mention the forum, but I do get people staring under my rig and asking what stuff is.

 

[Tim Horne]

This forum has been the best enthusiast platform. I learn something every time I read a post. Hosejockey is right as to the cost aspect.

 

[mvigo]

How do we more get people to understand?

by doing just what @mrblaine, you. myself and others are doing in this forum, reporting the results of our experiences. If you go back to my first post in my build thread, I mention how I arrived at the decisions I made modding my TJ. I spent a vast amount of time reading the experiences via the "other forum" posts of @mrblaine, yourself and others. The more I read, the more I dug in. I am glad I took the time to formulate a plan. In hindsight, I would make changes to my TJ now, that I should have done from Day 1 but by and large, I nailed it and couldn't be more happy.

I think a lot of people understand what the possibility can be by reading stuff like this, but the biggest factor is always going to be money. And it is the entirety of it all. The mid arm, shocks, steering, etc.

I agree that $$$ will always be the biggest factor, especially if one is paying someone else to do the work

I think the more you're in the hobby, the more you want to learn about how to make things better.

Absolutely, I still have a few things I would like to do to my TJ...

 

[mrblaine]

by doing just what @mrblaine, you. myself and others are doing in this forum, reporting the results of our experiences.

I've been on the experiential end of some of those interactions and enough of them that I'm not sure that works. An internet buddy who has come by several times has the habit of telling folks to tune their ride quality with springs. He has a TJ Unlimited with the typical internet build, long arm, crap shocks, etc. On one of his visits, I had him go for a ride with me in one of the rigs with some very well tuned DSC shocks. When we got back, I handed him the keys and let him go by himself. Upon his return, he got out and said he liked his shocks better. I can't fix that, but I can keep it away from me. Near identical experience from another long time buddy who called to tell me if I didn't find a way to fix his rig for him, he was going to sell it. Terrible to drive, no fun on the freeway, no fun offroad. I had him swing by and drive Mike's Midnight rig which is exceedingly nice, pleasant and fun to drive. After a lengthy test drive, he got out and said, "I like mine better". I told him there was nothing I could do for him.

 

[lBasket]

if I didn't find a way to fix his rig for him, he was going to sell it. ... After a lengthy test drive, he got out and said, "I like mine better"