Dave Kishpaugh's (Jeep West) geometry correction brackets are now available

[Gollywomper]

My interest in The brackets is 2 things.
1. I hate how my rear tire is not centered in the wheel well. I dunno it just bugs me.
2. even with the axle pulled forward just enough to clear the gas tank my tires contact the rear of the wheel well when stuffed. It’s been trimmed and bump stopped so it really doesn’t hit.
These brackets will help both those issues and will offer some other benefits as well.

 

[Blackjack]

Was the body roll issue with the mid arms due to antisquat or lack of track bar? (Or a by product longer arms)

Lack of track bar. There is not enough room under a TJ to package a triangulated four link with a higher roll center than where the Savvy already is.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

This is with a 35” tire. So it’s no really in the radius of the tire until 37”+. Which at that point you are in the realm of custom suspension anyway.

View attachment 252018

guess the LCA axle mount is farther forward than I was picturing. I was thinking tire radius is 17.5" > control arm length of ~16", but the mount is probably 3" forward of the axle centerline.

 

[Gollywomper]

guess the LCA axle mount is farther forward than I was picturing. I was thinking tire radius is 17.5" > control arm length of ~16", but the mount is probably 3" forward of the axle centerline.

It’s close enough that in some cases the tire should be biting the rock hitting the mount.

 

[Gollywomper]

Anyone still have a tj info in a link calculator?
if so can you input a 15.25” lower and a 13.25” upper arms?

 

[Blackjack]

Which is why in some situations the brackets could be better than a mid arm. Which is also why you can't make a blanket statement that one is better than the other. Each has their trade offs. You need to kno what purpose are you building for?

EDIT: Unless you are able to adjust the roll center of the 4 link by where you mounts are located. Which does seem reasonable to me. Although I suspect that again comes with trade offs. But I've never designed a suspension.

Lets say you are throwing a rooftop tent on raising your CG and hitting some trails. Raising your roll center is not such a bad thing then.

 

[Blackjack]

Just spit balling here, but maybe it has to do with keeping the upper and lower mounts equal within the center line of the axle. Drop only the lower mount and you are unequal with the center line of the axle tube?

The closer one arm mount gets to the centerline of the axle the more force that has to be contained by the other arm mount. A lot of guys on Pirate wanted a slick axle bottom and moved the lower control arm mount at or above the axle center and without raising the upper mount enough you allow axle wrap to happen.

 

[Brianj5600]

The closer one arm mount gets to the centerline of the axle the more force that has to be contained by the other arm mount. A lot of guys on Pirate wanted a slick axle bottom and moved the lower control arm mount at or above the axle center and without raising the upper mount enough you allow axle wrap to happen.

Triaged shows link forces, but I don't know what limits are. My DIY brackets cost almost as much as Dave's. Mine are 3/16" vs 1/4" for Dave's and his are much nicer. I'm not too worried about mine, but I'm not really a skinny pedal wheeler.

 

[Fargo]

Lets say you are throwing a rooftop tent on raising your CG and hitting some trails. Raising your roll center is not such a bad thing then.

An LJ with a hardtop feels pretty much like having a roof top tent. I've watched a lot of overlanding videos of guys with rooftop tents on their 4 door JKs and JLs. I've often said its remarkable how they appear to flop around just like my LJ.

I think something that often gets overlooked in these threads is whether or not a Jeep has a hardtop. A light TJ with a soft top is going to handle a whole lot different than an LJ with the hard top. That is why I am interested in these brackets. Despite the benefits of a mid-arm, I wouldn't want to give up my higher roll center.

 

[Apparition]

An LJ with a hardtop feels pretty much like having a roof top tent. I've watched a lot of overlanding videos of guys with rooftop tents on their 4 door JKs and JLs. I've often said its remarkable how they appear to flop around just like my LJ.

I think something that often gets overlooked in these threads is whether or not a Jeep has a hardtop. A light TJ with a soft top is going to handle a whole lot different than an LJ with the hard top. That is why I am interested in these brackets. Despite the benefits of a mid-arm, I wouldn't want to give up my higher roll center.

What shocks and springs are you running now?

 

[Fargo]

I am currently on Bilstein 5160 shocks with JKS dual rate springs. This setup is amazing compared to Ranchos and BDS springs I had before. But its still nowhere near as stable as my buddys JKUR with AEV lift or a stock JLUR with 35s. But its a matter of geometry and vehicle width and length. Its not a shock/spring issue. Its just the nature of the beast.

I don't think you will find a more stable shock/spring combo than my 5160/JKS setup. (Although I'm tempted to try some OME to see how they do). The reality is, to be more stable will require geometry changes. Hence the appeal of the brackets.

 

[Gollywomper]

I am currently on Bilstein 5160 shocks with JKS dual rate springs. This setup is amazing compared to Ranchos and BDS springs I had before. But its still nowhere near as stable as my buddys JKUR with AEV lift or a stock JLUR with 35s. But its a matter of geometry and vehicle width and length. Its not a shock/spring issue. Its just the nature of the beast.

I don't think you will find a more stable shock/spring combo than my 5160/JKS setup. (Although I'm tempted to try some OME to see how they do). The reality is, to be more stable will require geometry changes. Hence the appeal of the brackets.

Each one is different there is not one best solution for all.

 

[Lou]

I am currently on Bilstein 5160 shocks with JKS dual rate springs. This setup is amazing compared to Ranchos and BDS springs I had before. But its still nowhere near as stable as my buddys JKUR with AEV lift or a stock JLUR with 35s. But its a matter of geometry and vehicle width and length. Its not a shock/spring issue. Its just the nature of the beast.

I don't think you will find a more stable shock/spring combo than my 5160/JKS setup. (Although I'm tempted to try some OME to see how they do). The reality is, to be more stable will require geometry changes. Hence the appeal of the brackets.

The best riding jeep I have ever rode in was an LJ with a hard top. Your issue is definitely a shock issue.

 

[Blackjack]

Triaged shows link forces, but I don't know what limits are. My DIY brackets cost almost as much as Dave's. Mine are 3/16" vs 1/4" for Dave's and his are much nicer. I'm not too worried about mine, but I'm not really a skinny pedal wheeler.

Keeping the lower arm mount below the axle center and the brackets add enough separation to get to the 25% of tire size realm you should be fine. 1/4 inch is probably overkill but there is no kill like overkill.

 

[Apparition]

The best riding jeep I have ever rode in was an LJ with a hard top. Your issue is definitely a shock issue.

Yeah, I've wheeled out west with a hard top and with a soft top. I've never noticed a difference from the weight of the top. OME's and MC springs.

 

[Fargo]

The best riding jeep I have ever rode in was an LJ with a hard top. Your issue is definitely a shock issue.

Best riding or best handling? There is a HUGE difference. My ride is fine, my handling is pretty good to. But there is room for improvement. I would not attempt any drifting around corners like the AEV JK. Here is a true dual purpose Jeep.

 

[Blackjack]

I am currently on Bilstein 5160 shocks with JKS dual rate springs. This setup is amazing compared to Ranchos and BDS springs I had before. But its still nowhere near as stable as my buddys JKUR with AEV lift or a stock JLUR with 35s. But its a matter of geometry and vehicle width and length. Its not a shock/spring issue. Its just the nature of the beast.

I don't think you will find a more stable shock/spring combo than my 5160/JKS setup. (Although I'm tempted to try some OME to see how they do). The reality is, to be more stable will require geometry changes. Hence the appeal of the brackets.

The best riding jeep I have ever rode in was an LJ with a hard top. Your issue is definitely a shock issue.

Look at what Fargo said again. It is not the ride he is wanting to improve it is the handling. They are interconnected but not the same thing.

I do not understand why the offroad world lately has this belief that shocks can fix everything. Yes there has been great improvements in shocks in the last twenty years but shocks are supposed to help tune out what cannot be tuned out of the suspension geometry. Lets just for fun take two guys at the drag strip:

Fred: Damn Bob that launch was pretty bad, whats with the wheelie?
Bob: Dunno Fred not sure what I should do about it.
Fred: You should put some expensive shocks on it.
That just does not happen. You try to adjust out of the suspension what you can and then shocks help with what you cant.

 

[Gollywomper]

Look at what Fargo said again. It is not the ride he is wanting to improve it is the handling. They are interconnected but not the same thing.

I do not understand why the offroad world lately has this belief that shocks can fix everything. Yes there has been great improvements in shocks in the last twenty years but shocks are supposed to help tune out what cannot be tuned out of the suspension geometry. Lets just for fun take two guys at the drag strip:

Fred: Damn Bob that launch was pretty bad, whats with the wheelie?
Bob: Dunno Fred not sure what I should do about it.
Fred: You should put some expensive shocks on it.
That just does not happen. You try to adjust out of the suspension what you can and then shocks help with what you cant.

Because it has been repeated so many times that there is nothing wrong with short arms on 4” lift. It works but there is a lot wrong with it. People start looking elsewhere for improvement. Shocks is the next thing. By the time you get a off the shelf shock soft enough for a decent ride it starts to show the poor handling from the bad geometry created by the lift. This is maybe why tuned shocks have such a big improvement.

 

[Fargo]

I ins

Look at what Fargo said again. It is not the ride he is wanting to improve it is the handling. They are interconnected but not the same thing.

I do not understand why the offroad world lately has this belief that shocks can fix everything. Yes there has been great improvements in shocks in the last twenty years but shocks are supposed to help tune out what cannot be tuned out of the suspension geometry. Lets just for fun take two guys at the drag strip:

Fred: Damn Bob that launch was pretty bad, whats with the wheelie?
Bob: Dunno Fred not sure what I should do about it.
Fred: You should put some expensive shocks on it.
That just does not happen. You try to adjust out of the suspension what you can and then shocks help with what you cant.

I insert myself in this discussion because I think my needs are more the direction that Dave is going. He is trying to improve on road performance at the same time as offroad performance is improved. Its a delicate balance. Not everyone is looking for the ultimate rock crawler. Not everyone needs a midarm. Its good to have two different options for 2 different buyers and sets of needs. Due to lack of welding skills, I may never be able to install a set of Daves brackets, but I am glad he is out there looking for different ways to improve our Jeeps.

 

[bobthetj03]

How much taller are the upper brackets compared to the stock brackets with a JKS angled relocation bracket for the TB? I know he mentioned a 1" BL needed to clear the tub and maintain 2" bump extensions, but was curious if I could get away with my 1/2" BL. I already have 2" bumps in the rear for the TB so it doesn't hit the rear cross member.