Difference Between AGR vs PSC Saginaw Steering Box Conversion.

Ericshere03

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The AGR one is significantly cheaper!

There's a reason it's significantly cheaper. I made the mistake of buying an AGR box because I thought the PSC box was too expensive. What a POS.
In the end, after numerous calls to AGR trying to get them to correct the situation, I ended up spending another $900.00 for the PSC box.
 
Check out my build thread "Impact Jack". We pieced together Hydro Assist that works fantastic.

I'm glad it is working for you. For anyone else following along that may consider doing their version using yours as a blueprint, I would encourage them to consider that option very carefully.

There are sound rules for good steering. You can sometimes get by and wind up with a system that works well if you violate some or all of those rules, or you can wind up with something that irritates the crap out of you every time you turn the steering wheel. You violated practically every rule so your assessment that it is fantastic is somewhat surprising.

Before you get your feelings hurt, don't. I didn't make the rules, I'm just aware of them. To put that in perspective, I just spent 10 hours on a CJ that was done a year ago by the owner using a CJ specific kit he bought from PSC. He installed it, if you tried to turn the steering wheel faster than one would in normal steering on the trail or street, it would jerk and lock up. He messed with it for a year, removed all the parts and made PSC send him all new parts. He installed them, same result. He took each part out and took it to local shops to have it tested, verified as good, put it back in and did the next part. Made all new lines, installed them, same result. Over and over until finally he listened to the 20 folks who told him to call me. I had him drop it off, we went over it, checked a few things and then got to work fixing all the things he fixed.

We removed all the drilled fittings he installed in tight places. Notably, we swapped out the cooler for a 3" shorter one so we could plumb in bent tube fittings in place of the drilled versions he used.

We removed the -6 return hoses and installed -8 to reduce restriction on the return side back to the PSC reservoir.

We removed his -5 pressure hoses with -6 ends and replaced them with Eaton -6 hose and ends. That is a big one since lots of folks believe that -6 is -6 and it isn't. Commercial air brake hose is rated for power steering pressures. It is 5/16" bore and uses special fittings that are 3/8" JIC which interchanges with -6 AN but the flow is significantly reduced.

We changed the routing some to shorten up the lengths and reduce restriction.

Took us about 8 hours to fix it and build all new hoses and lines with the exception of the -12 feed line and cylinder lines. When we got done I had him come by and test it to see if it satisfied what he thought he wanted out of it. He was thrilled.

His lack of experience and understanding the rules caused him a year of grief, serious anger with PSC, and lots of wasted time and money. All we did is go back to what we know ALWAYS works, nothing more, just the basic rules we don't violate.

Sometimes you can violate them and it will all work just fine, the challenge is when it doesn't work like you want it to and can't figure out why.

In your case- small pulleys are out there, they shorten the lifespan of pumps because they don't like being overrevved.

Drilled fittings are always a no-no.

Drilling out the orifice in the pump pressure relief is well known. We don't do it because the flow is limited by the feed hole in the plastic reservoir. We can't always depend on that keeping up with the demand a cylinder and larger bore box places on the system.

If I don't have to modify the 3rd bolt sleeve in the frame to mount a gear, I'm always better off, I've done many, I'd encourage folks to seriously contemplate that as an option before they do it. The mounting bolt sleeve ends have to be within .005 in the same plane of each other or that can flex the case on the steering gear when the bolts are tightened and over time will ruin the steering gear. When that is done, it is a bitch to figure out so don't take the accuracy of that mod lightly.

Radiator style coolers are tough to use and add restriction. When you get in trouble, consider the straight through heat sink style, far less restriction.

Never weld the tabs to the tie rod. Use a clamp style so adjustability to set or change the toe setting isn't lost or even just set up the cylinder far easier. Also be aware that the cylinder will be rotating the tie rod to the limit of the rod ends misalignment once the steering wheel moves off center and king pin axis kicks in. The only place the cylinder is parallel is when the wheels are straight ahead.

Offset rod ends are always a bad idea. What most miss is when they come under load, the offset angle depends on NOT bending the tie rod to transmit that force to turn the wheels. Put another way, if you force it too hard, it will bend the tie or rod end threaded shank since the force is no longer in a straight line with the tie rod.

EDIT- in case anyone is wondering why there are two times, 8 and 10 hours, it took 8 to fix it. The other two were removing the grill and winch plate with winch to access the lines and top of steering gear and reinstall them along with adding a 6 pin connector set to the grill harness for future repairs.
 
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Couple of takeaways I see in this reading of the gospel of Mr. Blaine. Good common sense advice...of course...

One being kits from manufacturers don't always solve all problems and provide all the solutions.

Sounds like PSCs kit is not a good solution and you should be making or having made correct hoses.

Background...AN fittings stand for Army Navy...is basically the beginnings of the dawn of milspec from way back Put a /16 on the end of a AN number to get the true size...a -6 is 6/16s aka 3/8".

I'm planning on getting a Redtop steering box and playing the lottery on whether I get a good one or not. Theory is they're in Seattle and it's only a 5 hour drive.

Going to get it ported so I am ready when I move from 33s to 35s and should I see the need I already have the holes. A little loath to spend the money for more places things can leak.

Mr. Blaine...any preference on oil coolers...I've have lots of luck with Derule.

Thanks for the wisdom and common sense.

-Mac
 
I'm glad it is working for you. For anyone else following along that may consider doing their version using yours as a blueprint, I would encourage them to consider that option very carefully.

There are sound rules for good steering. You can sometimes get by and wind up with a system that works well if you violate some or all of those rules, or you can wind up with something that irritates the crap out of you every time you turn the steering wheel. You violated practically every rule so your assessment that it is fantastic is somewhat surprising.

Before you get your feelings hurt, don't. I didn't make the rules, I'm just aware of them. To put that in perspective, I just spent 10 hours on a CJ that was done a year ago by the owner using a CJ specific kit he bought from PSC. He installed it, if you tried to turn the steering wheel faster than one would in normal steering on the trail or street, it would jerk and lock up. He messed with it for a year, removed all the parts and made PSC send him all new parts. He installed them, same result. He took each part out and took it to local shops to have it tested, verified as good, put it back in and did the next part. Made all new lines, installed them, same result. Over and over until finally he listened to the 20 folks who told him to call me. I had him drop it off, we went over it, checked a few things and then got to work fixing all the things he fixed.

We removed all the drilled fittings he installed in tight places. Notably, we swapped out the cooler for a 3" shorter one so we could plumb in bent tube fittings in place of the drilled versions he used.

We removed the -6 return hoses and installed -8 to reduce restriction on the return side back to the PSC reservoir.

We removed his -5 pressure hoses with -6 ends and replaced them with Eaton -6 hose and ends. That is a big one since lots of folks believe that -6 is -6 and it isn't. Commercial air brake hose is rated for power steering pressures. It is 5/16" bore and uses special fittings that are 3/8" JIC which interchanges with -6 AN but the flow is significantly reduced.

We changed the routing some to shorten up the lengths and reduce restriction.

Took us about 8 hours to fix it and build all new hoses and lines with the exception of the -12 feed line and cylinder lines. When we got done I had him come by and test it to see if it satisfied what he thought he wanted out of it. He was thrilled.

His lack of experience and understanding the rules caused him a year of grief, serious anger with PSC, and lots of wasted time and money. All we did is go back to what we know ALWAYS works, nothing more, just the basic rules we don't violate.

Sometimes you can violate them and it will all work just fine, the challenge is when it doesn't work like you want it to and can't figure out why.

In your case- small pulleys are out there, they shorten the lifespan of pumps because they don't like being overrevved.

Drilled fittings are always a no-no.

Drilling out the orifice in the pump pressure relief is well known. We don't do it because the flow is limited by the feed hole in the plastic reservoir. We can't always depend on that keeping up with the demand a cylinder and larger bore box places on the system.

If I don't have to modify the 3rd bolt sleeve in the frame to mount a gear, I'm always better off, I've done many, I'd encourage folks to seriously contemplate that as an option before they do it. The mounting bolt sleeve ends have to be within .005 in the same plane of each other or that can flex the case on the steering gear when the bolts are tightened and over time will ruin the steering gear. When that is done, it is a bitch to figure out so don't take the accuracy of that mod lightly.

Radiator style coolers are tough to use and add restriction. When you get in trouble, consider the straight through heat sink style, far less restriction.

Never weld the tabs to the tie rod. Use a clamp style so adjustability to set or change the toe setting isn't lost or even just set up the cylinder far easier. Also be aware that the cylinder will be rotating the tie rod to the limit of the rod ends misalignment once the steering wheel moves off center and king pin axis kicks in. The only place the cylinder is parallel is when the wheels are straight ahead.

Offset rod ends are always a bad idea. What most miss is when they come under load, the offset angle depends on NOT bending the tie rod to transmit that force to turn the wheels. Put another way, if you force it too hard, it will bend the tie or rod end threaded shank since the force is no longer in a straight line with the tie rod.

EDIT- in case anyone is wondering why there are two times, 8 and 10 hours, it took 8 to fix it. The other two were removing the grill and winch plate with winch to access the lines and top of steering gear and reinstall them along with adding a 6 pin connector set to the grill harness for future repairs.

You sir could write a book!
 
Couple of takeaways I see in this reading of the gospel of Mr. Blaine. Good common sense advice...of course...

One being kits from manufacturers don't always solve all problems and provide all the solutions.

Sounds like PSCs kit is not a good solution and you should be making or having made correct hoses.
I was somehow unclear and I apologize. He took it upon himself to remove the correct -6 pressure lines and convert them to -5 with -6 ends.
He took it upon himself to move the cooler out of the grill where it belongs and use drilled fittings instead of the PSC supplied bent tube versions. The relocation to the underside of the front crossmember necessitated the shorter fittings due to location and him not wanting to "see the hoses" in the grill.

PSC made no mistakes that I caught except the accidental inclusion of a 1.75" cylinder instead of the better 1.5" bore that he should have. Since we made it work with the larger cylinder, only a slight mistake that cost them money only.
Background...AN fittings stand for Army Navy...is basically the beginnings of the dawn of milspec from way back Put a /16 on the end of a AN number to get the true size...a -6 is 6/16s aka 3/8".

I'm planning on getting a Redtop steering box and playing the lottery on whether I get a good one or not. Theory is they're in Seattle and it's only a 5 hour drive.

Going to get it ported so I am ready when I move from 33s to 35s and should I see the need I already have the holes. A little loath to spend the money for more places things can leak.

Mr. Blaine...any preference on oil coolers...I've have lots of luck with Derule.

Thanks for the wisdom and common sense.

-Mac
We use the heat sink style from Derale due to very high flow and low restriction.
 
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Couple of takeaways I see in this reading of the gospel of Mr. Blaine. Good common sense advice...of course...

One being kits from manufacturers don't always solve all problems and provide all the solutions.

Sounds like PSCs kit is not a good solution and you should be making or having made correct hoses.

Background...AN fittings stand for Army Navy...is basically the beginnings of the dawn of milspec from way back Put a /16 on the end of a AN number to get the true size...a -6 is 6/16s aka 3/8".

I'm planning on getting a Redtop steering box and playing the lottery on whether I get a good one or not. Theory is they're in Seattle and it's only a 5 hour drive.

Going to get it ported so I am ready when I move from 33s to 35s and should I see the need I already have the holes. A little loath to spend the money for more places things can leak.

Mr. Blaine...any preference on oil coolers...I've have lots of luck with Derule.

Thanks for the wisdom and common sense.

-Mac

This needs to be in here. In the interest of transparency so folks always know my position and where what I post comes from. We did not charge this guy for the time spent or the parts. His bill under normal circumstance would have been well over $1000. There are two reasons, the first is he was a problem customer for PSC. No matter how many times I pointed out that the problems were of his own creation, he kept asking me how he was going to get PSC to reimburse him for the hoses I made that were very near identical to what he removed and did not use. He wanted to know how to get them to compensate him for my time.

The only way to take that away from him so it would all stop was to do it for free. I also did not send a bill to PSC, there were very aware of him during our chats as to which direction to go so I had their full support the whole time.

PSC and I have a very long standing good relationship. Every single time I have had a problem or issue, they have been there for me and handled it no matter the cost to them. This is my way of paying some of that back. A recent example is my time sensitive order got misplaced. I wasn't on top of it due to being too busy and when it dawned on me that my two large heavy packages hadn't arrived yet and I had no shipping notice, I reached out later than I should have. They next day aired them to me once they finally located them. That's why I do what I can for them. They take care of me.
 
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Well … this thread got derailed …

I don’t think anyone answered, what’s the difference between the PSC and AGR Saginaw conversion boxes ?

No, I don’t want to drill my frame
No, I don’t want to go hydro assist (yet)
Yes, I just want a steering box that’s tighter than my loosy goosy ZF box
Yes, I have slop in my steering shaft, the Saginaw type is much cheaper, offsetting the PSC/AGR box a little bit.

My immediate goals for my LJ are 2” lift, 1”BL 33x10.50, UCF transfer case skid and their lo pro mount. I am hoping with my LJ I’ll get NO vibes, the effect of the lift and tummy tuck are 3.5” (at the transfer case), ZJ steering.

Basically enhanced stock. Someday I’ll go nuts and do Currie 4”, SYE, 35 or 37s, regear, lockers, HYDRO ASSIST STEERING, anti rock …

So the AGR/PSC box fits the immediate need and long term. Mr.Blane, you seem to have a good relationship with PSC. There seems to be bad feedback with some AGR product, perhaps the difference between the two is quality and price.

I also noticed that PSC has their own casting, I wonder if AGR does as well or just welds the third mount on a regular Saginaw casting. I can’t tell. If that’s the case, PSC all the way.
 
Reman vs new.

I just installed the big bore steer gear on my 98. I can tell the pump is much quieter now. Same pump as I ran with the reman stock box, but is silent now. Must be due to the larger bore of the box not requiring as much psi to do the same job. Can’t wait to add Hydro Assist to improve even more.
 
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Well … this thread got derailed …

I don’t think anyone answered, what’s the difference between the PSC and AGR Saginaw conversion boxes ?

No, I don’t want to drill my frame
No, I don’t want to go hydro assist (yet)
Yes, I just want a steering box that’s tighter than my loosy goosy ZF box
Yes, I have slop in my steering shaft, the Saginaw type is much cheaper, offsetting the PSC/AGR box a little bit.

My immediate goals for my LJ are 2” lift, 1”BL 33x10.50, UCF transfer case skid and their lo pro mount. I am hoping with my LJ I’ll get NO vibes, the effect of the lift and tummy tuck are 3.5” (at the transfer case), ZJ steering.

Basically enhanced stock. Someday I’ll go nuts and do Currie 4”, SYE, 35 or 37s, regear, lockers, HYDRO ASSIST STEERING, anti rock …

So the AGR/PSC box fits the immediate need and long term. Mr.Blane, you seem to have a good relationship with PSC. There seems to be bad feedback with some AGR product, perhaps the difference between the two is quality and price.

I also noticed that PSC has their own casting, I wonder if AGR does as well or just welds the third mount on a regular Saginaw casting. I can’t tell. If that’s the case, PSC all the way.

I will try and put it on track for you.

AGR boxes have a tab welded on, it's not a new casting, at least mine wasn't.
Against the advice of others and my better judgement I purchased the AGR box because I was in a bind. Upon installing it I found that the steering to the right was fine but steering to the left it felt like it had no power steering. The box felt sloppy and my Jeep wandered all over the road real bad. I checked the alignment and it was fine. I contacted AGR and their customer service rep explained how to adjust it, he said if adjusting it doesn't help... I got a bad box.
It turned out the box was indeed bad, once I called AGR to request an exchange, they told me I was beat because I adjusted it.

I removed the AGR box and installed a PSC box. The PSC box is their own casting with the tab cast into the housing. I've had the PSC box on for 6 years and dd my Jeep.It has been problem free.

The reason I initially had to replace my ZF box was because I bumped a curb at 5 mph and it snapped the pitman shaft right off. I would have put a ZF box back on if I could find one at the time, but no one had one.
The only one I could find was an A1 Cardone, most everyone knows to steer clear of their garbage.

Just so you know, when swapping to the PSC box, which requires no modification to your frame but does require a lower steering shaft from a 97-02 jeep. It also requires that you replace your power steering hoses from early model TJ's.

So....in my humble opinion, I would go with the PSC box because AGR = POS in my book.
 
This needs to be in here. In the interest of transparency so folks always know my position and where what I post comes from. We did not charge this guy for the time spent or the parts. His bill under normal circumstance would have been well over $1000. There are two reasons, the first is he was a problem customer for PSC. No matter how many times I pointed out that the problems were of his own creation, he kept asking me how he was going to get PSC to reimburse him for the hoses I made that were very near identical to what he removed and did not use. He wanted to know how to get them to compensate him for my time.

The only way to take that away from him so it would all stop was to do it for free. I also did not send a bill to PSC, there were very aware of him during our chats as to which direction to go so I had their full support the whole time.

PSC and I have a very long standing good relationship. Every single time I have had a problem or issue, they have been there for me and handled it no matter the cost to them. This is my way of paying some of that back. A recent example is my time sensitive order got misplaced. I wasn't on top of it due to being too busy and when it dawned on me that my two large heavy packages hadn't arrived yet and I had no shipping notice, I reached out later than I should have. They next day aired them to me once they finally located them. That's why I do what I can for them. They take care of me.

A lot of people don’t see the value in doing things like this for free, you do and it sounds like PSC does as well.

As a self employed contractor I often do work for my clients that I should charge for but don’t and it always comes back to me in the end.
 
Well … this thread got derailed …

I don’t think anyone answered, what’s the difference between the PSC and AGR Saginaw conversion boxes ?
As stated, one is a new casting, the other has a welded tab on a reman core box.
No, I don’t want to drill my frame
No, I don’t want to go hydro assist (yet)
Get the ported box whichever way you choose.
Yes, I just want a steering box that’s tighter than my loosy goosy ZF box
Yes, I have slop in my steering shaft, the Saginaw type is much cheaper, offsetting the PSC/AGR box a little bit.

My immediate goals for my LJ are 2” lift, 1”BL 33x10.50, UCF transfer case skid and their lo pro mount. I am hoping with my LJ I’ll get NO vibes, the effect of the lift and tummy tuck are 3.5” (at the transfer case), ZJ steering.

Basically enhanced stock. Someday I’ll go nuts and do Currie 4”, SYE, 35 or 37s, regear, lockers, HYDRO ASSIST STEERING, anti rock …

So the AGR/PSC box fits the immediate need and long term. Mr.Blane, you seem to have a good relationship with PSC. There seems to be bad feedback with some AGR product, perhaps the difference between the two is quality and price.
The AGR is a reman subject to the vagaries thereof. PSC is new.
I also noticed that PSC has their own casting, I wonder if AGR does as well or just welds the third mount on a regular Saginaw casting. I can’t tell. If that’s the case, PSC all the way.
PSC at one time even welded tabs onto their new boxes since they made them fit the early ones first. They no longer do that an have a new casting that fits both.
 
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I will try and put it on track for you.

AGR boxes have a tab welded on, it's not a new casting, at least mine wasn't.
Against the advice of others and my better judgement I purchased the AGR box because I was in a bind. Upon installing it I found that the steering to the right was fine but steering to the left it felt like it had no power steering. The box felt sloppy and my Jeep wandered all over the road real bad. I checked the alignment and it was fine. I contacted AGR and their customer service rep explained how to adjust it, he said if adjusting it doesn't help... I got a bad box.
It turned out the box was indeed bad, once I called AGR to request an exchange, they told me I was beat because I adjusted it.

I removed the AGR box and installed a PSC box. The PSC box is their own casting with the tab cast into the housing. I've had the PSC box on for 6 years and dd my Jeep.It has been problem free.

The reason I initially had to replace my ZF box was because I bumped a curb at 5 mph and it snapped the pitman shaft right off. I would have put a ZF box back on if I could find one at the time, but no one had one.
The only one I could find was an A1 Cardone, most everyone knows to steer clear of their garbage.

Just so you know, when swapping to the PSC box, which requires no modification to your frame but does require a lower steering shaft from a 97-02 jeep. It also requires that you replace your power steering hoses from early model TJ's.

So....in my humble opinion, I would go with the PSC box because AGR = POS in my book.

EVERYTHING I need to know to spend more money, I mean get the more expensive box, I MEAN GET THE PSC.

I forgive that was the case, I see a value in a new casting, and your experience has been resonated elsewhere in the past … PSC IT IS!
 
As stated, one is a new casting, the other has a welded tab on a reman core box.

Get the ported box whichever way you choose.

The AGR is a reman subject to the vagaries thereof. PSC is new.

PSC at one time even welded tabs onto their new boxes since they made them fit the early ones first. They no longer do that an have a new casting that fits both.

Thanks! Perfect feedback! I will go PSC, and the ported box, ya never know.