OP
OP
I did some exploratory work - this time focusing on the P/S setup. I see a lot of conflicting info on the P/S options, compatibilities, etc., so I won't be confident with a solution without some experimenting.
The factory Hemi PS pump has the same mounting hole spacing at the PSC CBR pump, which is the same as the older Jeep 4.0L pumps. Like the factory pump, all three holes are through-holes. The PSC pump also has 3 holes, but the one on the left (when looking at it from the front) is a blind-hole.
Spacing wise, the pulleys are in very similar locations - only ~1/8" off:
[Factory 2012 5.7L Hemi pulley - showing distance to the flat cover behind the pump]
[CBR pump as provided in PSC's #1852 kit]
It appears as though PSC offers a few pump options for the JK, including what appears to be a CBR pump with a few spacers. The PSC rep I spoke with confirmed that the JK pump kit uses the same pump but with a different size pulley. He also confirmed that the JK-Hemi kits only utilize the top and bottom bolts. I placed an order for some spacers, a new 3/4" return line, and a 180º fitting.
Fingers crossed that this is an easy solution
The factory Hemi PS pump has the same mounting hole spacing at the PSC CBR pump, which is the same as the older Jeep 4.0L pumps. Like the factory pump, all three holes are through-holes. The PSC pump also has 3 holes, but the one on the left (when looking at it from the front) is a blind-hole.
Spacing wise, the pulleys are in very similar locations - only ~1/8" off:
[Factory 2012 5.7L Hemi pulley - showing distance to the flat cover behind the pump]
[CBR pump as provided in PSC's #1852 kit]
It appears as though PSC offers a few pump options for the JK, including what appears to be a CBR pump with a few spacers. The PSC rep I spoke with confirmed that the JK pump kit uses the same pump but with a different size pulley. He also confirmed that the JK-Hemi kits only utilize the top and bottom bolts. I placed an order for some spacers, a new 3/4" return line, and a 180º fitting.
Fingers crossed that this is an easy solution
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When I did the Hemi, at first I tried using the stock pump to run the hydro assist and hydro boost. No dice. Too slow, and overheated. Went to the PSC remote reservoir pump, and it works like a charm. No spacers needed as I recall.
OP
It's weird - the early year pumps were too weak and the later year pumps are too much. A lot of people have tried the later-year truck pumps and they have too much juice and end up blowing the seals out of steering gears!
What pump did you end up going with, the CBR? I know there are some differences between the Eagle and non-Eagle accessories. The guys at PSC said "you will need 2-3 spacers" and he even went in the back to grab and measure the thickness (they are confirmed 3/16" thick). Mine shows to be ~1/8" offset. I figured I can use a flat sander and get my spacer down to the 1/8" needed rather easily.
Here's the PK1860/62 kit that PSC sells. You can see the two spacers they include with their setup. It possible that they sell a different pulley with a different offset (it wasn't mentioned to me)???
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OP
Unfortunately the TeraFlex 4877480 TJ gas pedal bracket kit isn't going to work...
First, the spacing on the later-model pedals is indeed not the same as the earlier pedals.
Second, the holes weren't drilled on the proper side! Based on where the angled-side of the bracket is, plus the holes being in the wrong orientation, I'm beginning to suspect that the bracket was pre-drilled and then put into the forming brake on the wrong side...
On a happy note, the Hemi NGC mounts in the same spot with the same hardware as the 4.0L JTEC
First, the spacing on the later-model pedals is indeed not the same as the earlier pedals.
Second, the holes weren't drilled on the proper side! Based on where the angled-side of the bracket is, plus the holes being in the wrong orientation, I'm beginning to suspect that the bracket was pre-drilled and then put into the forming brake on the wrong side...
On a happy note, the Hemi NGC mounts in the same spot with the same hardware as the 4.0L JTEC
For a guy in the planning stages of a swap, do you think it would be better to buy a whole truck, or just piece together what you need? Wheeling in the sand and mud, I need some horsepower... The 4.slow isn't the right engine. I can't get to it for at least a year, but I might start accumulating parts...
By the way, before this thread, I was leaning LS. This thread has me convinced that the hemi is now the way to go. Really nice work, so far.
By the way, before this thread, I was leaning LS. This thread has me convinced that the hemi is now the way to go. Really nice work, so far.
Mike,
It's always better to buy a complete vehicle as a donor rig as it can save you a lot of money in the long run when it comes to all the little odds and ends you end up having to buy. I don't think it matters which platform you are going with.
Kinda what I figured. I really should look to get something from the salvage auctions...lot driving, but rusty and not good for anything but the powertrain. Won't take much damage to total it, and around here, not too many people go for the rusty ones.
OP
Like @Wildman said, buying a full rig is often the best approach. If space allows, this is the best way to ensure you have everything you will need, while also having the opportunity to recoup some $$ in the long run. I did the same when I needed a 5.9L core for my RamCharger. I ended up buying a complete 1999 Ram, pulled the engine, trans, t-case, ECM and some other parts, then sold what was left. I ended up making $$ in the long run.
Now that said, with the popularity of Gen III swaps (Hemi and LS), there are many scrap yards and auto recyclers who will pull everything necessary for you (engine, trans, harness, TPIM, ECM, pedal, etc). You will pay more than you would if you bought a wreck/parts rig, but there is some convenience there.
I hear you there... I'm hardly a 4.0L fan. It's a reliable motor, but a tractor motor nonetheless. It took me about 5 months of constant searching to find all the parts I needed and I'm still getting some (some parts I needed other parts to confirm what I need first, exhaust manifolds for example).
For a guy in the planning stages of a swap, do you think it would be better to buy a whole truck, or just piece together what you need? Wheeling in the sand and mud, I need some horsepower... The 4.slow isn't the right engine. I can't get to it for at least a year, but I might start accumulating parts...
Both platforms are excellent. For me, the Hemi just makes the most sense since it's the most compatible with what is already in the Jeep (or at least what was available from the factory in certain years). The fact that I can keep it 100% emissions compliant with nothing more than a few locally sourced parts was the biggest advantage. With the Gen III Hemi swaps becoming increasingly popular, the aftermarket support is skyrocketing as well, which only makes it more appealing. Throw in the fact that a set of factory 2009+ Eagle heads will flow over 330 CFM is absolutely bonkers if I ever want to make this thing scream
If I was starting with my Jeep now and doing a engine swap I'd be seriously looking at a Hemi over the Magnum V-8. But with owning a 1997 with a 01/96 build date I'd have to swap out the gauges & wiring from a newer TJ. It isn't a HUGE issue but it does make it a little more of a hassle compared to starting with a newer TJ.
When I started my swap back in 2005 a Hemi engine & trans take out was $10K if not more since they were basically a new engine which is what kept me from doing the Hemi swap back then. And as pc1p has talked about the 408 stroker he has it's a MONSTER for power but as has been noted before the Hemi or LS will get BETTER MPG than the Magnum.
When I started my swap back in 2005 a Hemi engine & trans take out was $10K if not more since they were basically a new engine which is what kept me from doing the Hemi swap back then. And as pc1p has talked about the 408 stroker he has it's a MONSTER for power but as has been noted before the Hemi or LS will get BETTER MPG than the Magnum.
My logic for keeping it 318 Magnum is just less work overhead. Already having purchased a fully converted harness, bellhousing, ecm, and other parts. I just need a good magnum donor and mounts as well as a radiator solution.
For a newer JK, I would definitely consider the Hemi swap. I have the current 5.7 in the Durango and that thing is a beast, plus great mileage when traveling long distances on the road
Man, knowing that I’m getting maybe 10 on a good tank - you are in trouble Rick.
OP
FWIW, I got rid a recently bored and prepped 5.9L Magnum block, 75% of the rebuild parts, already-prepped crank and rods, and a ton of new accessories (water pump, timing chain, aftermarket cam, ECM, headers, 2 spare harnesses, etc) for my Hemi. Having just built the 408 Magnum, I knew how much I would spend to get the power levels I wanted out of it. Then I still needed to build the trans (a 46RE) to work with it...
At the end of it, when I ran the numbers, my estimate was that I would spend almost 2x the money on the Magnum rebuild to get to what the Hemi was getting bone stock. I keep detailed spreadsheets so I will see if that math turns out to be true
Even if the cost still comes out to be equal, I know I'll have a modern platform with lots of potential (if I ever want) plus have the opportunity to learn a new platform.
Yep I wouldn't change now as I have everything for the Magnum swap. I have a BUILT 46RE that was made to handle 600 HP so that is covered. With my 318 I was getting the same mileage as the guys running the 4.0 on the trail. I never took a long enough road trip to see what kind of on road mileage I was getting.
But I also know this 408 (6.7) is going to be thirsty as heck.
Since you have everything already I would just look for a core block and do a rebuild on it. If you weren't so far away I'd let you have a radiator for cheap. But any TJ radiator for a Chevy swap is the same for the Magnum.
I guess we'll have to see. Maybe it was a good thing I stuck with the magnum... It's also why I want a 20 gal tank either fuel cell or GenRight inframe.
For sureAt the end of it, when I ran the numbers, my estimate was that I would spend almost 2x the money on the Magnum rebuild to get to what the Hemi was getting bone stock. I keep detailed spreadsheets so I will see if that math turns out to be true
Appreciate it brother. For me, in the TJ currently, I will not need more than the Magnum musters. Having 20gal or more tank is a good way to not have to stress too much on fuel.
OP
Gonna test fit the motor tomorrow!
Decided to work on the 2005 gas tank today and get it cleaned out. I figured it would be good to get it prepped and ready, plus even though I have all the openings covered up the best I can, it still stinks a little like gas near the tank and I'll be happy to rid my garage of that smell
Decided to work on the 2005 gas tank today and get it cleaned out. I figured it would be good to get it prepped and ready, plus even though I have all the openings covered up the best I can, it still stinks a little like gas near the tank and I'll be happy to rid my garage of that smell
I've had an LS...I don't care for the power delivery of the more recent GM engines. Feels like your gotta rev them to redline to get any power. I was leaning that way just because of cost and aftermarket support.Like @Wildman said, buying a full rig is often the best approach. If space allows, this is the best way to ensure you have everything you will need, while also having the opportunity to recoup some $$ in the long run. I did the same when I needed a 5.9L core for my RamCharger. I ended up buying a complete 1999 Ram, pulled the engine, trans, t-case, ECM and some other parts, then sold what was left. I ended up making $$ in the long run.
Now that said, with the popularity of Gen III swaps (Hemi and LS), there are many scrap yards and auto recyclers who will pull everything necessary for you (engine, trans, harness, TPIM, ECM, pedal, etc). You will pay more than you would if you bought a wreck/parts rig, but there is some convenience there.
I hear you there... I'm hardly a 4.0L fan. It's a reliable motor, but a tractor motor nonetheless. It took me about 5 months of constant searching to find all the parts I needed and I'm still getting some (some parts I needed other parts to confirm what I need first, exhaust manifolds for example).
For a guy in the planning stages of a swap, do you think it would be better to buy a whole truck, or just piece together what you need? Wheeling in the sand and mud, I need some horsepower... The 4.slow isn't the right engine. I can't get to it for at least a year, but I might start accumulating parts...
Both platforms are excellent. For me, the Hemi just makes the most sense since it's the most compatible with what is already in the Jeep (or at least what was available from the factory in certain years). The fact that I can keep it 100% emissions compliant with nothing more than a few locally sourced parts was the biggest advantage. With the Gen III Hemi swaps becoming increasingly popular, the aftermarket support is skyrocketing as well, which only makes it more appealing. Throw in the fact that a set of factory 2009+ Eagle heads will flow over 330 CFM is absolutely bonkers if I ever want to make this thing scream
Frankly, I don't know what I'd do with 345/375 out of an early gen 3. That seems like an insane amount of power for a wrangler.
I think it's time to start buying engine tools. The 403 olds in my motorhome is gonna need a rebuild, and this hemi thing might be a fun project!
OP
You know the first time I drove an LS-based truck (5.3L/4L60E) I wasn't particularly impressed either. To be fair though,it was the same as with a 2007 Ram 1500 5.7L. From what I can gather, it's a combination of DBW (drive by wire) programming, transmission shift programming, torque converter stall speed, and generally the mild cam profile that favored efficiency at higher RPMs. I think the engineering and tuning teams at almost all the major MFGs struggled with how to take advantage of the new head flow and how to replicate the "feel" of electronic pedals.
I always chuckle when people say something like "what, are you building a race Jeep?" when someone suggests a V8 swap. A V8 swapped SWB Jeep like a YJ or TJ is an experience. I haven't been in a Hemi swapped TJ/YJ (I have been in a Hemi JKU and that was sweet), but I have been in a handful of V8 swapped ones (a mild SBC, an early 4.8L LS one, and a Magnum one - plus a few built AMC V8 CJ's) and will say that once you do, it's hard to go back to even a 4.0L rig.
If I were doing something like a motorhome, I would certainly be looking at a 6.0LS or 6.4 BTE (big truck engine) Hemi with any of the modern 8-speed transmissions (the 8HP90 is damn near perfect IMO).
OP
Transmission Update
In case you missed it in the earlier post about it, the 545RFE and 65RFE are considered "modular" transmissions. While most transmissions can be converted from 2x4 to 4x4 configuration, many needed to be disassembled in order to do so and many needed new/modified output shafts. The 545/65RFE is different; going from 2WD to 4WD is simply a matter of bolting on the correct tailshaft housing/extension.
[Factory 2x4/RWD tailshaft of the 2012 65RFE I'm using for my swap]
[Removal of 2WD tailshaft extension]
Removal requires nothing more than removing the 15mm socket bolts around the perimeter of the adapter, then using a small rubber mallet and a putty knife to break free.
[4x4 t-case adapter installed]
Both the 2WD and 4WD extensions are installed with Black RTV. My transmission-rebuilder friend (the one who gave me the extension for free) suggested "Ultra Grey" since the black will sometimes weep. When a trans rebuilder for 20-years suggests something, you do it!
[Output shaft stickout w/t-case adapter installed]
[Output shaft stickout; edge of shaft to t-case mounting surface]
[New overall length of 65RFE w/4WD t-case adapter installed - nearly exactly 27"]
In case you missed it in the earlier post about it, the 545RFE and 65RFE are considered "modular" transmissions. While most transmissions can be converted from 2x4 to 4x4 configuration, many needed to be disassembled in order to do so and many needed new/modified output shafts. The 545/65RFE is different; going from 2WD to 4WD is simply a matter of bolting on the correct tailshaft housing/extension.
[Factory 2x4/RWD tailshaft of the 2012 65RFE I'm using for my swap]
[Removal of 2WD tailshaft extension]
Removal requires nothing more than removing the 15mm socket bolts around the perimeter of the adapter, then using a small rubber mallet and a putty knife to break free.
[4x4 t-case adapter installed]
Both the 2WD and 4WD extensions are installed with Black RTV. My transmission-rebuilder friend (the one who gave me the extension for free) suggested "Ultra Grey" since the black will sometimes weep. When a trans rebuilder for 20-years suggests something, you do it!
[Output shaft stickout w/t-case adapter installed]
[Output shaft stickout; edge of shaft to t-case mounting surface]
[New overall length of 65RFE w/4WD t-case adapter installed - nearly exactly 27"]