Getting TJ ready for daily driving, LJ for weekend fun - not a rock crawler

[ChadH]

Good morning all! Man do I love all these forums, such great sources of information. Been poking around a lot here and the other one before some of us older folks migrated and it appears I am out of my "TJ game" having kinda neglected the G.E. the last 5 years. Anyway, I am working on setting up my TJ to be my new daily driver. I work from home most of the time now so really only drive it to the office as needed (which is literally 3 minutes away), or to town an hour away for errands maybe every couple of weeks. The new to me LJ has been mostly sitting since I got it.

TJ
Due to some life events I really need the TJ to be a good DD. For the last 10 years it has been sitting on a really nice rock jock 4" lift with all the components. I have never been in a position to utilize that, and am past that point in my life now unfortunately. So comfort for the DD TJ is most important to me now - I am not interested in maximum flex. I wanted to pick the brains of everyone here on some options. It is currently on 33's but I want to go back to 31's in a 3peak form (most likely duratrac's if they have that size). Here are some screenshots of what I am currently planning on getting to replace all the components. My only question/concern at this point is if I need to get replacement cam bolts, or any other hardware, and if there is any cause for concern returning the rear track bar back to stock since the rock jock kit did include a track bar relocation bracket that was tac welded on to the axle. The other question is what else to do other than drilling a hole in the bottom of the frame, coating the inside with 3M cavity wax, and coating the outside in Amsoil HD Metal Protect in order to maximize rust mitigation. Unfortunately they use a nasty salt brine here at very high concentrations and it is unfortunate but I will be having to drive in the salt probably a handful times a month in the winter. Now I know a there is a lot of hate for the rough country stuff. However, my reasoning for looking at them is these components look to have the factory rubber bonded clevite style components - which is what I am after for the most comfortable and reliable ride, but if there are other options to consider that offer even better NVH reduction I am all ears.

I also need a new clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, and needle bearing. And I have some type of very weird rotational clunk that only presents itself when the Jeep is cold or in the winter time... I feel like it is a U-joint somewhere but the local shop has been unable to find it. Oh, and do the manual TJ's (6 speed) have the same PCM issues as the auto's?? I'm curious why a manual PCM is almost twice the cost as a auto.


LJ
The "old man Jeep" will be my weekend fun vehicle. I know about the PCM issues and will be ordering a replacement from @Wranglerfix hopefully next month and the current PCM will be on standby as an emergency backup. The LJ is an automatic...All fluids look good since I purchased it. I am unfamiliar with the auto in these and am wondering, if mine tanks, where to go for a replacement, or are replacements for these even available any more?? I would like to do a lot of things to the LJ but over time as it's not as critical and it is just about showroom floor type condition now. 100% stock except for the gr8tops half cab which I will be removing and replacing with the gr8tops safari. One aspect that is really important is understanding if there is anything I need to do for 'winter storage'. I do not want to drive this in the winter due to the salt and brine here. In past winters with the TJ I have just made sure it is on a battery tender, oil is fresh, and some stabilizer in the fuel. But I worry doing that over and over with the LJ might not be good for it? So is there anything else to do for winter storage?

I have been reading here and there about some parts that are starting to be hard to come by apparently. Unless I am mistaken - some of those parts are things like: O2 sensors, spark plugs, blower motor resistor, radiator, evaporator and condenser, heater core, anything else? Since these will be my only vehicles, probably for at a minimum of 5 years, I want to make sure I stockpile the hard to get parts, and start replacing things that are showing wear even if they are not yet bad. Living in a very rural place, breakdowns here are really not a good situation, and are hundreds if not thousands to get a tow back to town, so mitigating the known failures is very important to me.

Anyway, happy to be back! Happy to be giving the TJ some love as it has by far been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned, and happy to be getting the LJ up to snuff for some fun camping and exploring! I appreciate everybody's knowledge on these and sticking around too!

 

[Tob]

So comfort for the DD TJ is most important to me now

Why not sell the TJ and buy a small reliable car that is better suited for daily driving and one that you won’t be sad to see get eaten alive by rust? Honda Civic / Accord, Toyota Corolla / Camry, etc.? I’m not saying you can’t daily drive a TJ (I do currently), but you can’t make it into something it’s not. And you still have the LJ for fun stuff. You could even swap the suspension over from TJ to LJ.

 

[ChadH]

Why not sell the TJ and buy a small reliable car that is better suited for daily driving and one that you won’t be sad to see get eaten alive by rust? Honda Civic / Accord, Toyota Corolla / Camry, etc.? I’m not saying you can’t daily drive a TJ (I do currently), but you can’t make it into something it’s not. And you still have the LJ for fun stuff. You could even swap the suspension over from TJ to LJ.

I dont want the rock jock suspension anyway. The LJ will stay on stock control arms and get a 2" OME lift just for a little extra clearance. The JJ's are far too harsh and noisy for me. My TJ has way too much significant value to sell. I would sell the LJ first but I like both of them. My 'commuting' is maybe once every couple of weeks to the office 3 minutes away and I only go to town a couple times a month but can probably wash the underside when I get back home from those trips. I just put the Gladiator up for sale today so I really want to keep the TJ and LJ

 

[bucky]

DD is a relative term. My DD is a 19 F250 6.2L. 9 mpg and I need ti fill it up every 3-4 weeks.

 

[ChadH]

Yeah good point...

I work from home most of the time. The office is 3 minutes away, I go usually once a week. Other than that I run to the store for groceries and such, another 3 minutes away. Usually 2-4 times a month I have to run to town which is 60 miles one way. It kinda sucks in the winter and is pretty icy. So the TJ will really see mostly pavement use with the occasional forest service road. The LJ being the 'fun' vehicle will see probably 50/50 pavement / forest service road. I plan to 'store' it in the winter to keep the salt off the LJ.

 

[bucky]

Only bad thing about short drives is that it is hard on the oil and the exhaust system. I have the oil change interval set at severe driving. My shop is 1 mile from the house and most everything I need is 10 miles or less away. Even the trails are 15 mins away for me.

 

[ChadH]

Yeah I know... it's really not great. I have some milkshake starting on but I'm confident it is condensation and not coolant. Like you I also change oil frequently. I always try to let it warm up and hit the highway to burn off any condensation and get things moving, but thats why the LJ will be used strictly for weekend trips that are long enough for full warmup of everything. Working from home and being so close to the office is a blessing and a curse in that regard. Unfortunately the TJ is likely to need an engine in the next 5 years as it's developing some noise. But that's an excuse to drop in a GE right? G.E. engine for the Golden Eagle? What's worse is last year I was lazy enough to drive the Gladiator to the office every day just to take advantage of heated seats and wheel since it was hitting 20 below ha.

 

[bucky]

We don’t come close to 20 around here let alone -20. + no salt. Wife has cooled seats in her CX-5 and I’ve become spoiled with them.

 

[Mike_H]

I dont want the rock jock suspension anyway.

The JJ's are far too harsh and noisy for me.

Huh? Something isn’t right, if you think the joints are harsh. The only noise they should ever make is squeaking, if they need grease

 

[Rockymountainhigh5]

Huh? Something isn’t right, if you think the joints are harsh. The only noise they should ever make is squeaking, if they need grease

I agree. I changed from stock control arms to all Johnny Joints this winter. The only noticeable change in ride was less vibration due to the ability to get my pinion angle adjusted correctly. Appropriate length shocks/ bumps stops a few weeks later had a much larger impact on the ride. No difference in noise with any of it.

 

[ChadH]

JJ's are definitely more harsh. It's physics. Standard arms have a bonded rubber bushing on both ends. And it has a lower angle of the control arm so bumps are soaked up more by the shocks and springs. JJ's have no rubber in them - well maybe a small piece with a very hard durometer. With a 4" lift it puts the arms at a steeper angle pushing force more into the frame than in stock configuration.

 

[Mike_H]

JJ's are definitely more harsh. It's physics. Standard arms have a bonded rubber bushing on both ends. And it has a lower angle of the control arm so bumps are soaked up more by the shocks and springs. JJ's have no rubber in them - well maybe a small piece with a very hard durometer. With a 4" lift it puts the arms at a steeper angle pushing force more into the frame than in stock configuration.

No.

 

[ChadH]

I recall during install of the currie lift there were a few places that required drilling out some holes to a larger option for the greasable bolts. I thought I saw another thread on this topic a couple days ago but I'm not seeing it now. One particular hole was the frame side front track bar mount, reaming it out to I believe 7/16 from its OEM tapered hole. I'm curious if there is possibly a sleeve insert available to essentially return it to compatibly with a stock style, or aftermarket adjustable but stock style track bar. Kinda thinking it will require use of the existing track bar or cutting off and re-welding the mount if I really want to that bad.

 

[ChadH]

Ok so after doing some more reading and looking I want to see what can be suggested.

So my TJ has rode like total garbage ever since the 4" rock jock suspension has been installed. It felxes fantastically, but the NVH is terrible. I was reminded just by how much a few months ago when I picked up and took for a drive an all stock new to me LJ with only 60K miles on it. And an unfair comparison is the my recently sold JT that had AEV dual sport with monotube 5100's - I mention this only because I really do not want a digressive shock. Progressive would be fine, liner would be good, but I really want to stay away from digressive - even the folks at Rock Jock confirmed for me that digressive shocks are not great.

Here's some details on the TJ.
Rock Jock installed 9 years ago. The JJ's have 'bushings' but they are super thin and hard poly, not soft and pliable like OEM clevite - maybe something in their manufacturer changed over the last 10 years.... Tires are at 30psi right now, currently on 33" KO2's which I hate. My older 31" Cooper STT Pros I used to run 28 but they were cupping bad due to ball joints failing. I would have to double check the load rating. JJ's have been greased every oil change ~3-5K miles. Never rebuilt though and due for it if I keep them. Alignment is all in order, it tracks and drives excellent, just rides horrible. Shocks are Fox 2.0's with adjustable reservoirs. No drop pitman arm. Transfer case has an Advance Adapters SYE with a Tom Woods drive shaft. Driveshaft's were just rebuilt last week, rear axle also recently rebuilt (shop forgot to put oil back in during last service so I got new gears for free but their shim work was bad so its whiny... :-/ ).

As a side note, I do want to lower it - it's hard for me to get into and out of. I am currently looking at OME springs xxxx for the front and xxxx for the rear. Another consideration would be stock springs with a 3/4" spacer front and rear. This would require different shocks as mine are set for I believe a 3-5" lift. And possibly different track bars if I can't cut and shorten the Rock Jock's. I am also seriously considering returning to stock arms for clevite bushings, and a similar but adjustable component for track bars unless someone can provide objective information that is not just "JJ's are better" statements.

So I'm curious what the experts here would suggest. I have been looking to returning to stock, or similar, simply because the NVH is terrible and always has been. I know I know, JJ's are awesome.... but before anyone throws more hate this way, enlighten me and help me learn something. With my specific use case of daily driving and not hard core off road, what benefit does the current JJ's give me that OEM bushings cannot provide? I need reasons to make a good educated decision, not just "JJ's are better". Does anyone have access to a NVH assessment tool that can check vibrations on a frame with JJ's and a frame with factory clevite bushings? I am completely failing to understand how it can be said that a hard metal joint has less NVH harshness than a rubber bushing. Looking for objective, not subjective, data on this.

I am also confused on shocks.... still. Only recently have I been informed by two different sources that Fox shocks tend to be quite stiff unless they are a custom tune - this I did not know and goes against past information I have found. It could even be the source of the rough ride entirely. I am not opposed to rebuilding and turning my current 2.0's since I already have them. But the confusion revolves around inconsistencies. Between here and the old TJ forum I have read it be said that Rancho are garbage shocks, but then a few threads later saying they are fantastic. Just today someone posted even the typically considered terrible shocks from RC actually being good shocks. Feel is subjective. Manufacturers and parts change and improve over time. What kind of specifications are available to help a person make a good choice without buy and try? I would happily rebuild my 2.0's if I knew they would be a good daily driving / dirt road shock. I do not want to spend a few thousand bucks only to find out that a standard OME or crown shock would be 'better'.

Hopefully this helps to bring to light why I am so confused.

 

[Rockymountainhigh5]

Not an expert, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express a couple months ago - so here's my $.02. I said some of this in my previous message, but will provide some more context:

I bought an 05 LJ Rubicon with ~55,000 miles on it last spring. My use: daily driver for spring, summer, and fall; off-road about once a week on average. It came with a spacer lift, stock control arms, clapped out shocks, and metric 33" E-rated, BFG KO2's. They were cracking badly, so within a week a replaced the tires with some 32" SL-rated Toyo Open Countries (got a good deal on Marketplace). At 30 PSI in each the increase in ride quality was very noticeable. Looking back I should have run much less pressure in the BFG's, live and learn. About a month later I replaced the shocks with Rancho RS9000s commonly recommended on this forum, again big improvement in ride quality, especially on our less than well maintained city streets. Drove it like that until November, when I put it up for the winter and started slowly amassing parts. Around March I installed double adjustable control arms with Johnny Joints on each end - which means I have driven a low mileage LJ on both stock control arms and Johnny Joints within 24 hours of each other. The difference in noise, vibration or harshness, was negligible, and SUBSTANTIALLY less than with the change in tires and shocks. Was there zero difference? Probably not, but, in my opinion, not all that noticeable (no, I don't have quantitive measures of vibration). When I changed out springs the only thing I noticed in terms of ride quality was less propensity to bottom out due to gaining about 3.5-4" of up-travel.

Based on nothing but my subjective experience over the past year, the things that made the biggest improvements to NVH from a daily driving standpoint, in order: 1 or 2), tires (currently running 33" hybrid rough terrain tires, C rated, at 28 PSI) C-rated not nearly as comfortable on road as the SL's, but better than the E's; 1 or 2) shocks; 3) adding carpet and heavy rubber floor mats (my jeep came line-x'd with no carpet); 4) tightening basically every interior bolt, and replacing all cracked interior trim pieces; 5) headliner for hard top. Johnny Joints didn't even crack the top 5 in terms of things that impacted ride quality/noise other than the adjustable nature of the new control arms allowing for a better pinion angle.

TLDR: There are a lot of factors that affect ride quality on any vehicle, based on my experience with a low mileage LJ I'm not convinced that the impact of the specific type of joint in the control arms of these vehicles is all that all that big. I'm not saying it's zero, of course rubber is going to have better vibration damping qualities, I'm just saying there are a myriad of other factors, based on my modifications over the past year, that had a much larger impact, specifically on NVH/driving comfort. Are Johnny Joints the end-all-be-all, perfect solution to all problems? Certainly not, especially if you aren't offroading. It sounds like yours need rebuilt so I'd start there. Or just get ride of them, your Jeep, your call: but if it were me I'd at least look into addressing some of the other things I mentioned, assuming you haven't already (especially figuring out what ply sidewall you're currently running), because for me they had a more noticeable, positive change.

Disclaimer: if you took any of this as "hate", which you specifically mentioned as being lobbed your way, maybe the internet isn't for you?

Good luck with your Jeep.

 

[ChadH]

Not an expert, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express a couple months ago - so here's my $.02. I said some of this in my previous message, but will provide some more context:

I bought an 05 LJ Rubicon with ~55,0G KO2's. They were cracking badly, so within a week a replaced the tires with some 32" SL-rated Toyo Open Countries (got a good deal on Marketplace). At 30 PSI in each the increase in ride quality was very noticeable. Looking back I should have run much less pressure in the BFG's, live and learn. About a month later I replaced the shocks with Rancho RS9000s commonly recommended on this forum, again big improvement in ride quality, especially on our less than well maintained city streets. Drove it like that until November, when I put it up for the winter and started slowly amassing parts. Around March I installed double adjustable control arms with Johnny Joints on each end - which means I have driven a low mileage LJ on both stock control arms and Johnny Joints within 24 hours of each other. The difference in noise, vibration or harshness, was negligible, and SUBSTANTIALLY less than with the change in tires and shocks. Was there zero difference? Probably not, but, in my opinion, not all that noticeable (no, I don't have quantitive measures of vibration). When I changed out springs the only thing I noticed in terms of ride quality was less propensity to bottom out due to gaining about 3.5-4" of up-travel.

Based on nothing but my subjective experience over the past year, the things that made the biggest improvements to NVH from a daily driving standpoint, in order: 1 or 2), tires (currently running 33" hybrid rough terrain tires, C rated, at 28 PSI) C-rated not nearly as comfortable on road as the SL's, but better than the E's; 1 or 2) shocks; 3) adding carpet and heavy rubber floor mats (my jeep came line-x'd with no carpet); 4) tightening basically every interior bolt, and replacing all cracked interior trim pieces; 5) headliner for hard top. Johnny Joints didn't even crack the top 5 in terms of things that impacted ride quality/noise other than the adjustable nature of the new control arms allowing for a better pinion angle.

TLDR: There are a lot of factors that affect ride quality on any vehicle, based on my experience with a low mileage LJ I'm not convinced that the impact of the specific type of joint in the control arms of these vehicles is all that all that big. I'm not saying it's zero, of course rubber is going to have better vibration damping qualities, I'm just saying there are a myriad of other factors, based on my modifications over the past year, that had a much larger impact, specifically on NVH/driving comfort. Are Johnny Joints the end-all-be-all, perfect solution to all problems? Certainly not, especially if you aren't offroading. It sounds like yours need rebuilt so I'd start there. Or just get ride of them, your Jeep, your call: but if it were me I'd at least look into addressing some of the other things I mentioned, assuming you haven't already (especially figuring out what ply sidewall you're currently running), because for me they had a more noticeable, positive change.

Disclaimer: if you took any of this as "hate", which you specifically mentioned as being lobbed your way, maybe the internet isn't for you?

Good luck with your Jeep.

The hate is not meant literally. But having simple answers to a potentially complex situation, especially when a person wants to actually understand, doesnt' help. I don't like to hear the 'this is better' 'that is better' argument. Without context, tts meaningless. Because a person saying something like that could have a entirely different outlook on their use case, different desires, different reasoning for their build, etc... Without specifics and metrics to measure on it's really hard to understand why someone says one is better than the other. So I definitely appreciate hearing more of your context and comparisons of past equipment. I definitely need to look at my tires, and I'm planning on getting them replaced anyway so that will be an important factor to consider. I honestly can't remember off the top of my head what rating they are. The new info I found today about the fox shocks was also news to me. Rock Jock said the same as well about them being pretty darn stiff, which is also helpful. I need to make some measurements to see if they would work ok with a 2" lift spring, then it would be well worth the $$ to have them rebuilt and tuned, for which it would also make sense to have the JJ's rebuilt. They are due for sure.

 

[ChadH]

I also decided to dig into the OME spring specs a little - after some reading of other experiences and build's that gave me a better understanding for rate vs length. Anywahoo, I was a little disappointed to see that OME (ARB) doesnt list specs for all of their springs. Outside vendors also don't really specify other than 'light' 'medium' and 'heavy'. So checking ARB's catalogue also did not specify rates unless I was in the wrong spot. So I gave ARB a call, and the person on the phone said he didn't know the spring rates or what the differences of the springs were - must be new. But instead of trying to figure it out, he told me to just send an email instead, and that should give someone time to dig into the specs and update the website and catalogue. There was also some pretty big inconsistencies on what they listed the OE spring rate to be. But that might have to do with TJ vs LJ springs. I think the LJ had a higher spring rate in the back from the factory.

However, here is the info that I did find available. It would be awesome if someone here might know what I wasn't able to find.
View attachment 544881

I would venture to guess that anyone with a bumper/winch would want the 2939 up front, and anyone with a hardtop would want the 2949 out back. And for the LJ probably the 2996. But it would be nice to know the missing pieces are. I recall someone else on their build talking about using the lightest weight spring available that nets the desired height. And it's a tad interesting that the lightweight springs are longer than the heavy weight springs. Probably to cover the amount of sag under stock vehicle weight - but I'm not an expert by any means on this, just taking guesses.

But at the moment I am considering the 2939 and 2949 for the TJ, and 2939/2996 for the LJ.

 

[ChadH]

Oops forgot the pic....

Also, just to make sure I"m not misleading anyone by mistake on the purpose for my two Jeeps - I am not building for rock crawling. My body can't take that and I have too many medical issues. The TJ G.E. will be my 'daily'. Daily meaning the office is 3 minutes away for the 2-4 times I go there a month, and maybe up to a half dozen trips to town 60 miles at 80mph each way. So by no means am I in traffic all day. This stretch of I90 really sucks too, and winter gets all the mag chloride and rock salt :-/. As for the LJ. Weekend trips, hopefully a 10-15 2-4 night camping trips each year. After retirement it would be great to go on longer trips possibly hauling a Dinoot trailer for more supplies. I do greatly love cruising around forest service roads other weekends not camping. I think in my local forest, there are maybe 2 fords on the whole 2.5 million acres.... And almost every 'open' road is pretty much passable by 2wd truck. Even going behind gates (legally in a FS gov rig) I have never encountered a road that truly required 4wd here. I would love to go to MOAB and the Rubicon - but it probably just won't happen. So my build is more of a 'off the beaten path' type use case, exploring dirt roads for days. Some might need 4x4 here and there but more often than not even that isn't necessary. It's unfortunate how this forest is managed IMO. So hopefully that offers clarity on my use case as well.

 

[ChadH]

ARB tech support got back to me this morning.

"The only information and specifications we have available for the springs are listed on the OME Catalog which is attached to this email for your reference."

Seems like maybe the 2939 and 2946 springs are no longer since they are on the website but not in the catalogue. They also were not indicating any desire to offer confirmation of the spring rates. Spring rates and lengths are solely on their website and not in the catalogue. So it would come across to me that the website information is not entirely trustworthy since they pointed to the catalogue only and mentioned nothing else.

Kinda makes it hard to pick the right one. I would like to think the website is accurate but there are a few inconsistencies that have me wondering.

 

[The4bangertj]

Springs do very little in ride quality but mainly just set ride height. A longer softer spring allows more travel which is desired for offroad but a short stiff spring is used when weight changes a lot or the rig is generally heavier where the soft long spring is too soft. It’s a balance but often isn’t too bad as a tj isn’t trailering a lot of weight while also trying to get the most suspension travel.

Shocks are the biggest factory in ride quality and you’ll get very different ideas on how shocks ride because everyone runs different weight jeeps, or people in other vehicles like trucks who’s weight very a lot. Those tjs that I see enjoy untuned foxes or bilstein shocks tend to have very heavy jeeps (all steel armor, hard top and full doors, and the back filled with tools or what not). Stiffer valves often feel softer with a lot of weight. The Rancho rs5000x (i currently run these) are a cheap shock. Steel body and only 50 bucks a piece. Why they’re so good is the tune, it is very soft considering other manufacturers and they’re very nice on our little tj that isn’t over loaded. A fox or bilstein is a nicer built shock with aluminum body’s but not a nicer tune for a tj. The Rancho cost is kinda nice too as I have smashed 3 of them in rocks and replacements were cheaper than the fancy stiff ones.

Secondly people forget tires have a large roll in comfort especially in our light tjs. I have 33in bfg ko2 in a C load rating. I run 30 psi when I drive across the country and have the jeep very heavy, but around town that’s way too much and is added harshness to the ride. Around town I drop to 25 psi and it makes a world of a difference in ride quality. So much so I’ve had passengers ask me if I got nicer shocks when I did it.

Johny joints are yes in a literally sense are harder than a stock arm but the difference in any felt ride quality from the difference between the stock arm and a jj arm is zero. The arm angle typically has to exceed what a 5in lift gives you to feel the added hardness of that control arm being too vertical so a 4in lift won’t have any more trouble than stock height in arm angle. Going from a 4in lift to no lift with all things the same but that arm angle will not be enough for you to feel a difference. In the good side of a johny joint, you’re getting a more bind free joint, much stronger arm against deflection, and the ability to change pinion angle with the Johny joint arm. The only down side I see if you now have to grease the arms while a stock arm you do not. That’s a perk for me as I could often get more squeaks or clicking from a stock bushing not pressed in the arm properly than I do with johny joints. I have to grease other stuff so adding the arms to also get grease to it isn’t an issue for me. If you’re going back to 100% stock and don’t plan on ever taking it on a dirt road then yes a stock arm will be fine and you won’t see the benefits of a jj arm. If you add a lift or do any off roading the bind free joints and ability to change pinion angle are a massive plus and are not harsh or steep enough to cause ride quality issues. Drop tire pressure and tune the foxes or try some ranchos for a better ride.
Hopefully that explains it without just saying it’s better.