ranger101
TJ Addict
They have decent pricing on things and a good variety. Make friends with someone at a local machine shop lol have them practice their ID threading and fab you some links
High travel, high clearance & high octane, a streetable adventure LJ story
- Thread starter toximus
- Start date
They have decent pricing on things and a good variety. Make friends with someone at a local machine shop lol have them practice their ID threading and fab you some links
OP
I copied the final mockup steering arm plate over to 3/4" steel plate and drilled and reamed it. I'll be cleaning this plate up later and will weld it to the upper steering arm, but first I need to finalize my steering a little more before I want to commit.
OP
The last part of the steering to go in is hydro-assist. To turn the big 37s offroad and keep the power steering pump in good shape, hydro-assist is mandatory.
Here's my parts list:
* PSC cylinder with 1.75" bore x 10" stroke (SC2216) <—- edit: I changed the cylinder out to a 1.75" bore x 8" stroke (SC2201)
* Female 3/4"x3/4" rod end (REXFR12)
* Male 3/4"x5/8" rod end (REXMR10-12)
* Two 3/4" jam nuts (FSNJ-3/4-16RH or FKB-SJNR12)
* And two mounting tabs (MB01)
I wanted protection for the cylinder from trail hazards so I placed it above the tierod as high as I could. This way the tierod will also act as a bumper for it. Additionally by attaching to the knuckle steering arm bolt, compared to attaching one end to the tierod, there is no dead spot roll before the HA starts to push/pull.
Just like how the steering gear stops need to hit exactly when the knuckle steering stops touch, so does the cylinder. The cylinder is positioned so that the shaft is fully compressed during a left turn — this determines it's lateral position on the axle. When the wheels are pointed straight, the cylinder is level — this determines it's height on the axle. When the axle is in a full right turn it needs to not hit the TRE threads or nut. I kept moving it down a little at a time until it cleared.
Full right turn clearance on TRE threads and nut:
To stop the cylinder from continuing to push on a right hand turn and busting the ball joints and other components, I need to destroked it by marking and measuring the total length of the shaft less the used length of shaft and cut a spacer to that length and placed it into the cylinder.
While measuring mine for destroking I realized that I'd need just over a 2.5" spacer with my 10" cylinder. So instead of using such a large spacer, I ordered a 8" cylinder and will only have to destroke it by 0.5". (PM me if you need a 10" cylinder SC2216)
Here's my parts list:
* PSC cylinder with 1.75" bore x 10" stroke (SC2216) <—- edit: I changed the cylinder out to a 1.75" bore x 8" stroke (SC2201)
* Female 3/4"x3/4" rod end (REXFR12)
* Male 3/4"x5/8" rod end (REXMR10-12)
* Two 3/4" jam nuts (FSNJ-3/4-16RH or FKB-SJNR12)
* And two mounting tabs (MB01)
I wanted protection for the cylinder from trail hazards so I placed it above the tierod as high as I could. This way the tierod will also act as a bumper for it. Additionally by attaching to the knuckle steering arm bolt, compared to attaching one end to the tierod, there is no dead spot roll before the HA starts to push/pull.
Just like how the steering gear stops need to hit exactly when the knuckle steering stops touch, so does the cylinder. The cylinder is positioned so that the shaft is fully compressed during a left turn — this determines it's lateral position on the axle. When the wheels are pointed straight, the cylinder is level — this determines it's height on the axle. When the axle is in a full right turn it needs to not hit the TRE threads or nut. I kept moving it down a little at a time until it cleared.
Full right turn clearance on TRE threads and nut:
To stop the cylinder from continuing to push on a right hand turn and busting the ball joints and other components, I need to destroked it by marking and measuring the total length of the shaft less the used length of shaft and cut a spacer to that length and placed it into the cylinder.
While measuring mine for destroking I realized that I'd need just over a 2.5" spacer with my 10" cylinder. So instead of using such a large spacer, I ordered a 8" cylinder and will only have to destroke it by 0.5". (PM me if you need a 10" cylinder SC2216)
OP
There was a shipping mix up where the new cylinder was shipped to somebody else and then once I finally received it I realized that I had overlooked the fact that the rod end was a different size thread into the body so I had to order a 5/8x5/8 rod end (part number REXMR10) and jam nut (SJNR10-1). So that took yet another week to come in. After my build is completed I will be creating an entire list of wear parts like this and purchasing some to have on my shelf so I don't have to wait.
I installed the 8" cylinder using the same steps I listed in my last post. So I won't bore you guys with the details.
I marked and measured the shaft to verify that I needed to destroke by my estimated 0.5". To open the cylinder I used a gland tool (OTC 7463). I did have to chuck the pins in the drill press and turn them down to 3/16" to fit.
Be careful of the seals when opening the cylinder so that you don't pull the shaft threads through the end cap; do that and it'll have to be rebuilt.
For the spacer I actually bought one made of aluminum the perfect size from McMaster-Carr. Had I not already needed to place an order for bolts, the other option is to make your own by stacking up homemade aluminum washers. Using a steel spacer, such as DOM tubing or steel washers, could end up scratching up the shaft and tearing seals over time.
To verify my stops I turned the steering all the way driver's (left) and bolted in the cylinder fully collapsed. And repeated for a right turn with the cylinder fully extended. Both ways the cylinder bolted right in.
I installed the 8" cylinder using the same steps I listed in my last post. So I won't bore you guys with the details.
I marked and measured the shaft to verify that I needed to destroke by my estimated 0.5". To open the cylinder I used a gland tool (OTC 7463). I did have to chuck the pins in the drill press and turn them down to 3/16" to fit.
Be careful of the seals when opening the cylinder so that you don't pull the shaft threads through the end cap; do that and it'll have to be rebuilt.
For the spacer I actually bought one made of aluminum the perfect size from McMaster-Carr. Had I not already needed to place an order for bolts, the other option is to make your own by stacking up homemade aluminum washers. Using a steel spacer, such as DOM tubing or steel washers, could end up scratching up the shaft and tearing seals over time.
To verify my stops I turned the steering all the way driver's (left) and bolted in the cylinder fully collapsed. And repeated for a right turn with the cylinder fully extended. Both ways the cylinder bolted right in.
liquidfluidity
TJ Enthusiast
Keep it coming! Looks like you're moving along pretty well for having to order everything in and you have very good machining and engineering skills. I can't wait to see this on the road!
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OP
OP
Now that the steering is entirely mocked up and everything is in it's proper place, I finalized the brackets and cleaned things up. The final welding will happen when I pull the axle after the coilovers are mocked up.
I cut the pitman arm down to size:
I remade the frame side trackbar mount so there'd be less gap between the bracket and the frame:
To strengthen up the track bar and drag link DOM tube linkages, I inner sleeved them with 1" OD 6061-T6 solid round bar. These don't see the abuse that the tie rod sees and are also shorter so the weight and cost savings are welcome over the heat treated 4140 I had used in that.
On the steering arms I used 1" OD .120" wall tubing cut to length as spacers over the grade 8 3/4"-16 by 8in length bolts. 3/4" washers and mechanically locking grade C/8 stover nuts. Blue Loctite to prevent rust and further retain the steering. The 3/4" bolt is torqued to 200ft-lb.
One question I received is how I figured out my maximum turning radius or if I could add more with the RCV shafts. The answer is that Currie set the knuckle steering stops for me. Any more angle and the inner-C wants to take out the upper steering arm bolts.
I cut the pitman arm down to size:
I remade the frame side trackbar mount so there'd be less gap between the bracket and the frame:
To strengthen up the track bar and drag link DOM tube linkages, I inner sleeved them with 1" OD 6061-T6 solid round bar. These don't see the abuse that the tie rod sees and are also shorter so the weight and cost savings are welcome over the heat treated 4140 I had used in that.
On the steering arms I used 1" OD .120" wall tubing cut to length as spacers over the grade 8 3/4"-16 by 8in length bolts. 3/4" washers and mechanically locking grade C/8 stover nuts. Blue Loctite to prevent rust and further retain the steering. The 3/4" bolt is torqued to 200ft-lb.
One question I received is how I figured out my maximum turning radius or if I could add more with the RCV shafts. The answer is that Currie set the knuckle steering stops for me. Any more angle and the inner-C wants to take out the upper steering arm bolts.
OP
Aside from running the steering fluid hoses (will happen around the time the fenders go in), installing the reservoir, 6lb pressure valve to keep it from spitting, and tweaking the alignment once it's driving, this finishes up the steering chapter of my build. If you're just tuning in now, the steering is spread over posts dating back to some of my first posts in this build thread. Here's an index:
Feel free to keep steering discussion going. I've enjoyed the comments/questions/ideas/suggestions.
- Axle overview: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...reetable-adventure-lj-story.9956/#post-155760
- Drilling the upper steering arm: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...le-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-2#post-165183
- The steering parts list: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-15#post-265815
- Fitting steering stuff in: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-15#post-265827
- Steering game plan: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-15#post-267543
- Flat pitman arm: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-16#post-268192
- Rough tierod mockup: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-16#post-269388
- Steering plate mockup and rough mockup of all the links: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-17#post-272463
- Tierod heim spacers: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-17#post-272851
- Firming up and committing to the placement: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-20#post-333029
- Aligning the axle: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-21#post-333917
- Finishing up the tirerod: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-21#post-375029
- Finishing up the pitman arm: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-21#post-375074
- Steering arm plate: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-22#post-377217
- Mounting hydro assist: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-22#post-377220
- Destroking hydro assist: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-22#post-391201
- Finishing up the steering: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...e-adventure-lj-story.9956/page-22#post-391428
Feel free to keep steering discussion going. I've enjoyed the comments/questions/ideas/suggestions.
OP
Back in March I had dropped off the roll cage padding covers to be modified at the seamstress. She did a great job of it. Looking back, I would have marked how to cut around the bars slightly different and reversed the direction of the zipper above the driver's head (not her fault since I did all of the measuring) but I'm still very happy with the results. However, if somebody has some take off LJ covers I'd buy them off you and I'd have another go at this.
I have a question for you if you don't mind. I know hydro assist helps with turning those big tires off-road on the trail. But how about hwy driving? Is there a appreciable difference in road feel compared to OEM setup?
OP
Sure thing. I don't mind.
As you mentioned, hydro assist does partially do the obvious of marking steering easier on the driver. I had the experience earlier this year driving easy trails in Johnson Valley with the khaki TJ on 35s and even though the Jeep is easy to make turns in parking lots it was extremely difficult to turn once on boulders — 37s will be even worse.
The other purpose of hydro assist is to take stress off of other components such as the steering gear and track bar. However improperly setup steering can also place a lot of additional stress on those other components too, so that is why I made sure each and every part reached it's steering stop at the same time. This is true for on road and off road but like most things you'll notice wear much faster off road — I suspect that is why we see a lot of guys saying that 37s are just fine with the stock axles and stock steering, if that is the case I would have loved to save the time of setting up this custom steering.
I apologize if I am repeating myself, but one of my goals of this build is to have it drive comfortably to be a daily driver. I also want to explore the different trails across the US and make a trip up to Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. I have no intentions of trailering to trail heads. So it is very important that the entire build, including steering, is reliable, predictable, and comfortable.
The main areas that will help this Jeep meet those needs are having a physical link (ie. drag link) to the steering gear, plenty of caster angle, and proper scrub radius (set with rim back spacing). The physical link will help provide feedback to the steering wheel. Caster angle will provide adequate return to center to be comfortable which also helps with predictability. And scrub radius will provide predictability. They all work in concert with each other to provide a good driving experience.
Something to remember when looking at my crossover steering compared to bolt in crossover steering kits available for the TJ is that my trackbar is entirely different than stock. That is how I can get away with it and not end up with bumpsteer.
To get back to your question, I suspect the steering will feel "normal". No different than going from a car to a truck. So different, but normal. I'm super excited to drive and feel the nuance between the stock style steering on my wife's khaki TJ compared to the crossover on my red LJ. Remind me of your question again once I have it on the road and I'll update you.
If something I said didn't make sense to you let me know so I can explain further.
The Redneck ram hydro assist on the YJ feels like electric power steering. Super smooth, effortless to turn. Like I said, it reminds me of electric power steering on most of the newer cars. Makes turning the 38’s feel as though its stock on 31’s.
OP
To finish up my windshield repair, the windshield company replaced the glass. It didn't come with new interior trim so I'm glad I hung onto that piece.
OP
I had to do a few other errands down in the big city so I decided to try out another tire shop for balancing and I ended up finding the best tech ever who had no issues with the set of 35s and 37s showing up or being on beadlocks.
This is a 37" Goodyear MT/R on TrailReady beadlocks balanced out to 0.00oz on Roadforce:
The other set of 35s (for my wife's Jeep) was done by another guy at the same shop. He did an acceptable job with them but in the future I will be requesting that the guy who did the 37s personally balance my tires. I still need to take them for a spin but as long as they drive good I'd say it's well worth the 6 hour round trip drive to get them done right!
This is a 37" Goodyear MT/R on TrailReady beadlocks balanced out to 0.00oz on Roadforce:
The other set of 35s (for my wife's Jeep) was done by another guy at the same shop. He did an acceptable job with them but in the future I will be requesting that the guy who did the 37s personally balance my tires. I still need to take them for a spin but as long as they drive good I'd say it's well worth the 6 hour round trip drive to get them done right!
OP
I actually called him up this morning to thank him and he just said responded with "everyone here will balance them exactly the same" but said that I can request he balances my tires when I asked. I don't know if he fully realizes how great of a job he did or how rare that is to find. Next time I will bring in a box of donuts or something for him for sure!
OP
OP
I've learned a lot since I put in the rear coilovers and I think I have come up with a method for mocking up the perfect placement for the hoops and it requires very little effort comparatively. This is the culmination of my experiences, the suggestions of others, and a few things I've seen. So I can't take full credit for it. I also agreed not to share some of the tips I received that really helped make the install way easier, if you're keen eyed you can probably spot these tricks in the pictures and learn.
To start, I measured the axle from the ground at ride height, next I moved the axle up to full bump and measured again. My limiting factor is the tie rod contacting the draglink TRE. My total available uptravel is 6.5". Next I took the collapsed length of my coilovers and added 6.5" to the number. I ended up with 31" as the length of my coilovers eye to eye at ride height.
I then took a piece of 1x1 and cut it 1" longer than my eye to eye length and drilled holes 31" apart so I could fit a 1.5" spacer in on each end (this is the width of my coilover eyes). I then bolted the mounting tabs on one end for the axle and the bracket on the other end for the hoop. This is my "mockup coilover".
If you've worked with coilovers before, you've probably realized as soon as you start placing the top bracket that there's really only one way to orientate the bracket onto the hoop so that the coilover body doesn't hit the bracket. Here's the magic recipe:
Take your hoops and lay them flat on the ground, put a length of ...REDACTED... The resulting location should be the ideal orientation. I went ahead and tacked the mounts in place.
One quick note here, I cheaped out when I bought the upper brackets since I was patching together what I had left from the rear hoops and I went with Artec's version. Artec either has no clue what they're doing or their mount isn't designed to work with Fox 2.5 coilovers... either way they don't fit around the eye and the design isn't nearly well functioning as the Genright mounts I replaced them with.
(Artec on the left, Genright on the right)
The next biggest hurtle that we're going to prep for is perfecting coping and notching the tubing around the frame. The front section of frame has a lot of things to notch around like the motor mounts, but this method will make messing up okay. I took 6' of ...REDACTED... not have to bend/buy new hoops.
Based on some testing at full flex, I know that I need to move the coilover inboard to keep it off the axle side track bar mount, and I need to keep the coilover as far outboard as I can to clear the frame. But by mounting the coilover angled too far out at the top it looks dorky and can start getting into the tire. My best bet is to lean the coilovers back at the top so the body is in the narrowest section of the frame. To achieve a happy medium I will possibly need to notch the frame to make it even narrower. I'm hoping I'll be able to fit in short airbumps but I might not have the room.
Now that I am prepped and have a general idea of my coilover placement, I put the axle back at ride height, closed the hood, took the "mockup coilover" and checked my clearances against the hood. I want my mounts to fit under the hood. Right off the bat I can tell that I need to move the coilovers down. The coilover itself clears, but the hoop will not.
I was able to shave 1/2" off the axle mounting tabs to get them closer to the axle but it's still not enough clearance if the hood is pushed down and I don't want them tapping as it catches wind going down the road. These 2.5x14" coilovers are just so long... I looked briefly at the 2.0s and I've riden in a similarly built Jeep with 2.0x12" with the new Fox DSCs and it rode great so it's an option if I have to. But I still think I can make these big boys fit.
My 2 options are to limit uptravel and I could lift the Jeep slightly more to gain it back, or to mount the coilover lower on the axle.
To start, I measured the axle from the ground at ride height, next I moved the axle up to full bump and measured again. My limiting factor is the tie rod contacting the draglink TRE. My total available uptravel is 6.5". Next I took the collapsed length of my coilovers and added 6.5" to the number. I ended up with 31" as the length of my coilovers eye to eye at ride height.
I then took a piece of 1x1 and cut it 1" longer than my eye to eye length and drilled holes 31" apart so I could fit a 1.5" spacer in on each end (this is the width of my coilover eyes). I then bolted the mounting tabs on one end for the axle and the bracket on the other end for the hoop. This is my "mockup coilover".
If you've worked with coilovers before, you've probably realized as soon as you start placing the top bracket that there's really only one way to orientate the bracket onto the hoop so that the coilover body doesn't hit the bracket. Here's the magic recipe:
Take your hoops and lay them flat on the ground, put a length of ...REDACTED... The resulting location should be the ideal orientation. I went ahead and tacked the mounts in place.
One quick note here, I cheaped out when I bought the upper brackets since I was patching together what I had left from the rear hoops and I went with Artec's version. Artec either has no clue what they're doing or their mount isn't designed to work with Fox 2.5 coilovers... either way they don't fit around the eye and the design isn't nearly well functioning as the Genright mounts I replaced them with.
(Artec on the left, Genright on the right)
The next biggest hurtle that we're going to prep for is perfecting coping and notching the tubing around the frame. The front section of frame has a lot of things to notch around like the motor mounts, but this method will make messing up okay. I took 6' of ...REDACTED... not have to bend/buy new hoops.
Based on some testing at full flex, I know that I need to move the coilover inboard to keep it off the axle side track bar mount, and I need to keep the coilover as far outboard as I can to clear the frame. But by mounting the coilover angled too far out at the top it looks dorky and can start getting into the tire. My best bet is to lean the coilovers back at the top so the body is in the narrowest section of the frame. To achieve a happy medium I will possibly need to notch the frame to make it even narrower. I'm hoping I'll be able to fit in short airbumps but I might not have the room.
Now that I am prepped and have a general idea of my coilover placement, I put the axle back at ride height, closed the hood, took the "mockup coilover" and checked my clearances against the hood. I want my mounts to fit under the hood. Right off the bat I can tell that I need to move the coilovers down. The coilover itself clears, but the hoop will not.
I was able to shave 1/2" off the axle mounting tabs to get them closer to the axle but it's still not enough clearance if the hood is pushed down and I don't want them tapping as it catches wind going down the road. These 2.5x14" coilovers are just so long... I looked briefly at the 2.0s and I've riden in a similarly built Jeep with 2.0x12" with the new Fox DSCs and it rode great so it's an option if I have to. But I still think I can make these big boys fit.
My 2 options are to limit uptravel and I could lift the Jeep slightly more to gain it back, or to mount the coilover lower on the axle.
OP
I cut new tabs to mount the coilovers off the lower control arm mounts and bolted them to my mockup coilover. This postions the coilover with plenty of clearance off the hood.
Mounting the coilovers at an angle in of 87* seemed like a good place to start based on my earlier mockups. So I tacked the tabs onto the axle pointed with the bolt 90* from the axle, angled the mockup coilover 87* in, and placed the hoop legs on the frame. I then took out my secret weapon: the Pipemaster! I've been wanting one for a while now and I decided to splurge and see how well it works for notching the tubing around the motor mounts — something that would be impossible to eyeball with any accuracy.
I traced the pattern from the pipemaster around each leg and cut them at the welding table with the angle grinder.
Going back to the hoop, I put the mock up coilover back at the desired angle. The notching turned out pretty good! I then tacked them into place.
(at full articulation the bottom eye of the coilover is about 1/2" away from it's mount)
Before repeating for the other side, I cycled the axle and learned a few things.
1) I will need to notch the frame by over half it's width. But first I want to repeat for the other side to make sure the mirrored position works fine.
2) Because the coilovers aren't mounted in a true 1:1 ratio with the axle movement and the axle tube rolls as it cycles, there is an extra 1/2" of travel left before they bottom out at full bump. To prevent the axle from smashing through the engine, I'm either going to need air bumps in place or lower the hoops by 1/2". If solved with air bumps, I will also need to check that the tires are okay at full articulation.
Mounting the coilovers at an angle in of 87* seemed like a good place to start based on my earlier mockups. So I tacked the tabs onto the axle pointed with the bolt 90* from the axle, angled the mockup coilover 87* in, and placed the hoop legs on the frame. I then took out my secret weapon: the Pipemaster! I've been wanting one for a while now and I decided to splurge and see how well it works for notching the tubing around the motor mounts — something that would be impossible to eyeball with any accuracy.
I traced the pattern from the pipemaster around each leg and cut them at the welding table with the angle grinder.
Going back to the hoop, I put the mock up coilover back at the desired angle. The notching turned out pretty good! I then tacked them into place.
(at full articulation the bottom eye of the coilover is about 1/2" away from it's mount)
Before repeating for the other side, I cycled the axle and learned a few things.
1) I will need to notch the frame by over half it's width. But first I want to repeat for the other side to make sure the mirrored position works fine.
2) Because the coilovers aren't mounted in a true 1:1 ratio with the axle movement and the axle tube rolls as it cycles, there is an extra 1/2" of travel left before they bottom out at full bump. To prevent the axle from smashing through the engine, I'm either going to need air bumps in place or lower the hoops by 1/2". If solved with air bumps, I will also need to check that the tires are okay at full articulation.