Hub Centric Wheel Questions

[andy29847]

My 2004 Rubicon with 15" x 10" American Racing wheels and BFG KO2 33x12.5r15 tires has always been sensitive to tires changes. Also, it seem like I have had a disproportionate number of out-of-round tires. In the latest round of trouble, I had to change to the spare while I was on a trip. With the spare on, I had a little wiggle at 50mph. Since I was towing the Jeep behind my RV, I wanted the wiggle fixed. The tire shop I went to found that one wheel was going to need 2 pounds of weight (dynamic balance). Neither he nor I wanted to do that, so he static balanced it for a road test. The wiggle was better but not gone. We then tried putting the rear tires on the front. The wiggle was worse. Then they re-balanced these (former rear - now front) wheels and tires. This reduced the wiggle to almost nothing. I settled for this.

Cut to 6 weeks later. I removed my front wheels to inspect the brakes. When I put the wheels back on and went for a test drive, the wiggle was back and much more pronounced. My thoughts (as a former telephone man) was that I had another tire out of round and putting it on the Jeep in a different orientation had caused a more pronounced effect. I went to the front end place that trues tires in my area. The tech there is someone who has helped me before and seems very knowledgeable. He found one tire slightly out of true, but he said the big problem was the wheel was not centered on the hub. He centered the wheel and shaved the tire. Now my Jeep drives like a Cadillac. The tech suggested hub centric rings might help.

My questions?

Is there a procedure to follow when installing lug centric wheels to insure that they center themselves?

Are any of you using hub centric rings and have they helped the drivieability of your Jeep.

Should I be thinking hub centric wheels? I understand stock wheels are hub centric. Does this put me in the market for Moab wheels? Any recommendations for hub centric wheels? Is 3.5 - 4" backspacing what I should buy?

Why does it seem to be a voodoo art to get a jeep to drive like it is supposed to?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Steel City 06]

It seems there are quite a few options for hub rings.

Here’s one option:
https://www.uswheeladapters.com/shop/hub-centric-rings-aluminum-stock/
Another thing you might consider is active balancing. Centramatic makes some active wheel balancers that fit right behind the wheels and automatically rebalance every time you exceed 25 mph or so. They will correct an out of balance condition, but not an out of round condition caused by poor tire mounting or incorrect wheel centering.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

The use of the correct type of lug nut is all you need to use to insure lug-centric wheels are properly centered. Like lug nuts with tapered seats. It'd take wheels with big lug holes and flat-base lug nuts to even have a chance of the wheel not being centered.

 

[andy29847]

The use of the correct type of lug nut is all you need to use to insure lug-centric wheels are properly centered. Like lug nuts with tapered seats. It'd take wheels with big lug holes and flat-base lug nuts to even have a chance of the wheel not being centered.

Good post Jerry. The wheels came on my Jeep when I bought it. The lugnuts are conical on the end. However, it seems some American Racing wheels use lug nuts with shanks. I need to do some research.

 

[GASnBRASS]

If the lugnuts are a straight shaft with a washer to apply tension, you need hubcentric wheels. If the lugnuts have a conical taper that applies tension, you can use any compatible wheel with a matching conical lugnut seat as the lugnuts will center the wheel.

 

[andy29847]

My wheels are American Racing model 1085. They are 15x8, not 15x10 like I thought. The specs I have found call for a 60 degree conical lugnut. That is what I have. This info doesn't solve my problem. The wheels do not seem to center reliably.

 

[toximus]

I agree with Jerry.

I'm running lug centric spacers and lug centric rims. Now I'd recommend that at least one of these be hub centric, but it also shouldn't matter, and I am experiencing zero problems with these being out of round.

 

[John Scoggins]

Good post Jerry. The wheels came on my Jeep when I bought it. The lugnuts are conical on the end. However, it seems some American Racing wheels use lug nuts with shanks. I need to do some research.

While researching the wheels find out what type of lug nuts it takes, there are tapered and ball lugs nuts. There should be a part number on the back of the hub on the American Racing wheels that will help you find out what kind of lugs you need. The picture below shows the difference between the two type of "tapered" lug nuts.

 

[Vinman]

I recently installed a set of factory Alcoa rims (lug centric) with 33x10.50R15 BFG KO2’s on my 06 Rubicon and had an odd vibration, it didn’t feel like an unbalanced tire but just felt odd.
I pulled all the wheels off and after making sure the mating surfaces on the rims and rotors were smooth I reinstalled the rims but when I put them back on I tightened every lugnut as tight as I could by hand and wiggling the rim to seat it properly before final tightening and torquing to spec. No more odd vibrations.

I should add that in almost 40 years of driving I had never had to do that before.

 

[andy29847]

Found this:
Here is how you should mount your aftermarket rims, after a rotation, new rims or tires, or a good ol cleaning

1. Jack car up and secure it with a jackstand (Safety First )
2. Loosen all lug nuts and either put on rim, rotate or whatever the hell you need to do.
3. Thread on all the lug nuts, but DO NOT tighten to where you can not move em.
4. Rotate the tire/rim until one of the 5 lugs is at the 12 o clock position.
5. Tighten lug nut with thumb and forefinger to the point that you can not do it anymore.
6. Rotate the tire clockwise, skipping one lug nut.
7. After skipping the one nut, put the 3rd nut in the 12 o clock position. Tighten this one the same as Step 5
8. Skip one more nut, and repeat Step 5. This last nut will be right next to the first one.
9. Let the truck down to where the tires barely touch the ground. Use a wrench and tighten all bolts with about 25% of your strength. Just enough to grab.
10. I then let the truck down all the way and torqued the bolts to 90.
11. Repeat all steps above for the rest of the truck and throw a couple of beers in there

 

[Vinman]

Found this:
Here is how you should mount your aftermarket rims, after a rotation, new rims or tires, or a good ol cleaning

1. Jack car up and secure it with a jackstand (Safety First )
2. Loosen all lug nuts and either put on rim, rotate or whatever the hell you need to do.
3. Thread on all the lug nuts, but DO NOT tighten to where you can not move em.
4. Rotate the tire/rim until one of the 5 lugs is at the 12 o clock position.
5. Tighten lug nut with thumb and forefinger to the point that you can not do it anymore.
6. Rotate the tire clockwise, skipping one lug nut.
7. After skipping the one nut, put the 3rd nut in the 12 o clock position. Tighten this one the same as Step 5
8. Skip one more nut, and repeat Step 5. This last nut will be right next to the first one.
9. Let the truck down to where the tires barely touch the ground. Use a wrench and tighten all bolts with about 25% of your strength. Just enough to grab.
10. I then let the truck down all the way and torqued the bolts to 90.
11. Repeat all steps above for the rest of the truck and throw a couple of beers in there

Thats pretty much how I mounted mine

 

[GASnBRASS]

I recently installed a set of factory Alcoa rims (lug centric) with 33x10.50R15 BFG KO2’s on my 06 Rubicon and had an odd vibration, it didn’t feel like an unbalanced tire but just felt odd.
I pulled all the wheels off and after making sure the mating surfaces on the rims and rotors were smooth I reinstalled the rims but when I put them back on I tightened every lugnut as tight as I could by hand and wiggling the rim to seat it properly before final tightening and torquing to spec. No more odd vibrations.

I should add that in almost 40 years of driving I had never had to do that before.

Where did you find Alcoa wheels? I'd rather get quality wheels than china knockoffs.

 

[Vinman]

Where did you find Alcoa wheels? I'd rather get quality wheels than china knockoffs.

I found them locally used, they came off an 04 TJ RME.

 

[Goatman]

I myself can not understand why anyone would buy a lug centric wheel. I've been blasted for this before on this forum, so don't bother this time. Everyone should be allowed their own thoughts.
What other rotating assembly do you know that is not made to fit tightly to its center shaft? Disregarding the weight of a rim and tire, which makes out of round even more severe. Would you bolt in a cam that is just pretty close to round? Crank? Hell, how about a drive shaft that isn't balanced right? The number of posts on a Jeep forum about getting tires balanced 4 or more times to try and fix a vibe problem should make it obvious. Most people have never even heard the words hub-centric or lug-centric. But once they do they wonder why would somebody choose lug-centric. It's because that way a wheel company can get one rim to fit a whole range of vehicles. It's just cheaper. It seems the Toyota Tacoma folks have a similar issue with new rims too. After I have talked them into at LEAST getting a proper hub centric ring for their wheels its amazing how many vibe problems are magically cured.
Do what you like. Think what you like. But after that first lug nut is tightened the location of the rim is set. And there are still 4 more oversized holes that will now likely be just ever so slightly off center.
That is why anytime you screw/bolt one part to another you never tighten anything until all holes have a screw/bolt in them. Because once you tighten that first point it won't let you correctly align the other points. Sermon is over.

 

[John Scoggins]

I myself can not understand why anyone would buy a lug centric wheel.

Probably because that is what the vehicle came with from the factory. Why the factory would choose not to use hub centric....cost cost and cost (and maybe some ability to use bearings across different models).

PS I do agree with ya

 

[Jerry Bransford]

I myself can not understand why anyone would buy a lug centric wheel.

Because the vast majority of aftermarket wheels are lug centric, especially for Jeeps and trucks, and they work perfectly well. With the correct lug nut which insures it will be centered, they will be as perfectly/every bit as well centered as a hub centric wheel will be. Even my superb quality forged alloy Walker Evans beadlock wheels are lug centric.

Can you find any posts where someone said something like OMG I had a lug centric wheel problem I could only fix by replacing them with hub centric? I think not.

If hub centric was a legitimately important safety characteristic to have, the lawyers working for the aftermarket wheel manufacturers would have long ago forced them to produce primarily hub centric instead of lug centric as is the most common type produced.

 

[andy29847]

The problem comes when you have weenies putting the wheels on a Jeep and not realizing that tightening a lug centric wheel is different than tightening a hub centric wheel. I am satisfied that this has been the root of my tire problems since I had the Jeep. I've been the culprit a couple of times. I ma going to get some hub centric rings (71.5 x 83) and continue to use my wheels. One thing I need to work through is to find some different hub covers. The American Racing hub covers push through from the inside.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Ok, you seem to have a problem with lug centric so do what you feel you have to do. My lug centric wheels on the other hand have never been an issue in the many years I've been using them. Most of the aftermarket wheels discussed here are lug centric and I've literally never seen anyone posting comments anywhere that they had any problems with them.

My tapered seat lug nuts easily draw my lug centric wheels in perfectly centered every time. No problem, not even once. Again, lug centric wheels are by far the most common aftermarket type wheel made to fit our Jeeps.

If a tire jockey is screwing up installing your lug centric wheels, that's not the wheel design's fault any more than it's the tire's fault when a tire jockey over inflates it.

 

[Steel City 06]

I chose to use OE 16x8 wheels for my tires. I used hub centric spacers (Spidertrax) for convenience, as they tend to be easier to mount. Additionally, it is much more difficult to install one off center. Combined with Centramatic wheel balancers, my 35x12.5 (actually 315/75R16) have no vibration even at 85-90 mph. I imagine it could be just as well done with lug centric spacers and no wheel balancers, but I prefer to make it idiot resistant.

 

[Goatman]

Good for you Jerry. And I mean that. Not snide or a slam in any way. But I know quite a few vehicles that were chasing vibe problems. Re-re-re-balancing tires until I convinced them to either get a proper hub-centric wheel or spacer. The aftermarket makes lug-centric because it is a whole lot cheaper to have 1 rim fit every 5×4 1/2 and 1 fit every 5×5,and so on then have to carry inventory for each individual vehicle hub size. And then sell a hub spacer separately. I feel if you are chasing a vibe and have to repeatedly try to rebalance your tires then get the proper spacer for that rim and a lot of folks will see their problems disappear.
Again I ask what other piece of rotating assembly gets attached without a centered hub in the design?
Flywheel? Harmonic balancer?
If you are happy with your rims then great. If you have no balancing problems then great. But if you do, try getting a proper hub spacer and see if it helps. It's an option surprisingly most people don't know of. Ask if people have even heard of the terms hub- or lug- centric and 9 out of 10 haven't.
Again, if you are happy with you, great. And I assume that with all the CNC work done today this will become less of a problem.