I need more help (employees 101)

[AndyG]

This is a new thread that is part of the stuff causing my burn out thread and here’s the deal

I realize I’ve got to create a compensation system that is perceived equal in rational that everybody I really don’t like the word “fair” because it is pretty subjective

I’ve got a young man who will work his heart out if he thinks he’s getting what he wants but if he thinks he doesn’t he gets a bad attitude and he is ridiculous

I was thinking about giving him a raise anyway he does not do highly skilled work that he does preliminary work very well

We had an incident a while back that delayed that and we have come to the place that it’s time for the subject to come up and he asked me -

We kicked around some figures and I was already oven mind to work something out and he has just been running his mouth all week about how he’s not paid enough to do this and he’s not paid enough to do that and even made the statement that if he got a raise he would work harder and have a better attitude. The last part didn’t sit well with me at all.

Now I have seen people that make really good money treat their job better but most of the time they treat it pretty good before.

I think he’s got a long history since a child of basically throwing a fit when he doesn’t get his way and family members tell me that it’s been a long term pattern.

So now we’re down to Friday and he wants to raise and basically I want him to hit the road because I don’t want anything in my life right now that would cause me any additional stress.

I am putting this out here for you guys to help me view this objectively.

I realize it’s my company and I can do what I want but that doesn’t give me the right to do the wrong thing.

I want to develop people and see people grow and see them make a livable wage but they’re not going to bully their way into more money when everything is going through the roof anyway and we are all struggling to make it as easily as we did 4 years ago.

 

[tnjeepguy]

I think he’s got a long history since a child of basically throwing a fit when he doesn’t get his way and family members tell me that it’s been a long term pattern.

Do not need this type person, unless cannot do without his skill set. D

 

[Chris]

It’s a brave new world, huh?

 

[John Cooper]

It’s a brave new world, huh?

I would say of the 19-20 year olds it's a gimme gimme gimme world.

We had a tech go out to do a job yesterday. Swap 4 steel wheels with aluminum wheels. He came back to the shop 2 hours later and told me he found the truck but they didn't have unit numbers on them.

I questioned why he didn't think about it.

Then he called in sick today.

Come to find out today, one of the people that are having the wheels swapped showed him the trucks and the tech told him he couldn't do the job because it was to hot.

My customer was upset with me, and I had to send 3 techs out to get the job done to keep peace with the customer.

To say I was mad is an understatement.

Branch Manager is out of town till Monday. He says he will handle it, but if he doesn't fire the guy I am walking.

I am to blame old to put up with lying snot nosed babies anymore.

 

[Chris]

I would say of the 19-20 year olds it's a gimme gimme gimme world.

We had a tech go out to do a job yesterday. Swap 4 steel wheels with aluminum wheels. He came back to the shop 2 hours later and told me he found the truck but they didn't have unit numbers on them.

I questioned why he didn't think about it.

Then he called in sick today.

Come to find out today, one of the people that are having the wheels swapped showed him the trucks and the tech told him he couldn't do the job because it was to hot.

My customer was upset with me, and I had to send 3 techs out to get the job done to keep peace with the customer.

To say I was mad is an understatement.

Branch Manager is out of town till Monday. He says he will handle it, but if he doesn't fire the guy I am walking.

I am to blame old to put up with lying snot nosed babies anymore.

More-and-more this is why I try to do as much as my own work as possible. It’s getting very difficult to find quality work and good workers.

 

[DaveC]

Establish pay ranges for each role that give you room to hire guys into the same role with varying levels of experience. As an example, $12 - $15 per hour for X role DOE allows you to hire the inexperienced guy at $12 and the guy with 7 years experience at $15.

Establish criteria for increases. We use a stepwise approach that ties in seniority and productivity so even if someone isn't going to promote beyond a certain level, they've got room to increase over time with performance that's adding to the bottom line.

Incentive programs can also help. Maybe in your situation something tied to on-time completion or error-free work. In our distribution center, we tie productivity and error rate together for monthly bonuses and it's had a huge impact on both productivity and quality of work.

Monitor the market to make sure what you're offering is competitive. I prefer to be at the top of the market so I'm the place everyone wants to be and can then be picky to (hopefully/theoretically) get the cream of the crop. Play offense, not defense.

Finally, whatever structure or program(s) you put in place, don't deviate.

I'll always take short staffed with rock stars over 'properly' staffed with any mediocre or bad employees. People like the guy you referenced do slip thru the cracks. Hold your ground; let him walk or help him find the door. Good people are still out there - sometimes we just have to cycle thru some of the others to find them, and they'll appreciate a good environment that treats them fairly.

 

[red02tj]

This is a new thread that is part of the stuff causing my burn out thread and here’s the deal

I realize I’ve got to create a compensation system that is perceived equal in rational that everybody I really don’t like the word “fair” because it is pretty subjective

I’ve got a young man who will work his heart out if he thinks he’s getting what he wants but if he thinks he doesn’t he gets a bad attitude and he is ridiculous

I was thinking about giving him a raise anyway he does not do highly skilled work that he does preliminary work very well

We had an incident a while back that delayed that and we have come to the place that it’s time for the subject to come up and he asked me -

We kicked around some figures and I was already oven mind to work something out and he has just been running his mouth all week about how he’s not paid enough to do this and he’s not paid enough to do that and even made the statement that if he got a raise he would work harder and have a better attitude. The last part didn’t sit well with me at all.

Now I have seen people that make really good money treat their job better but most of the time they treat it pretty good before.

I think he’s got a long history since a child of basically throwing a fit when he doesn’t get his way and family members tell me that it’s been a long term pattern.

So now we’re down to Friday and he wants to raise and basically I want him to hit the road because I don’t want anything in my life right now that would cause me any additional stress.

I am putting this out here for you guys to help me view this objectively.

I realize it’s my company and I can do what I want but that doesn’t give me the right to do the wrong thing.

I want to develop people and see people grow and see them make a livable wage but they’re not going to bully their way into more money when everything is going through the roof anyway and we are all struggling to make it as easily as we did 4 years ago.

Food for thought counterpoint, when my partner and I were mid negotiations to sell our company, we got approached by our top two sales people, demanding a massive raise and change to their comp plan or they were our the door, and they truly had the leverage. Mind you, these were people we’d worked with for years and had brought on as our first two hires when we started the company. We did some talking, and from their perspectives, we as owners were making bank, and were about to get a massive payout (we didn’t, I bought my TJ) What they didn’t know, was my partner and I had pledged our houses, 401k, shared hotel rooms when we traveled, etc, so they could have market rate comp, travel to see the client “who was about to sign” and that we had a clause in our sale agreement that every employee was offered a position with the new firm for 12 months.

In the end 1) very few employees of smaller businesses owners know what it takes to make payroll, let alone a profit 2) from they day forward, we lived up to our commitment of their jobs in the new firm, but as friends they were dead to us. they chose selfish entitlement and trying to get “the same” instead of having and adult conversation 3) I’m happy for now in big tech as just a number, but when that runs out, I can count on one hand, the people I’d start a business with.

P.S one of those guys is still my old partner, and he’s the one who flew down a cold rainy weekend in February to help me install my lift.

 

[red02tj]

Food for thought counterpoint, when my partner and I were mid negotiations to sell our company, we got approached by our top two sales people, demanding a massive raise and change to their comp plan or they were our the door, and they truly had the leverage. Mind you, these were people we’d worked with for years and had brought on as our first two hires when we started the company. We did some talking, and from their perspectives, we as owners were making bank, and were about to get a massive payout (we didn’t, I bought my TJ) What they didn’t know, was my partner and I had pledged our houses, 401k, shared hotel rooms when we traveled, etc, so they could have market rate comp, travel to see the client “who was about to sign” and that we had a clause in our sale agreement that every employee was offered a position with the new firm for 12 months.

In the end 1) very few employees of smaller businesses owners know what it takes to make payroll, let alone a profit 2) from they day forward, we lived up to our commitment of their jobs in the new firm, but as friends they were dead to us. they chose selfish entitlement and trying to get “the same” instead of having and adult conversation 3) I’m happy for now in big tech as just a number, but when that runs out, I can count on one hand, the people I’d start a business with.

P.S one of those guys is still my old partner, and he’s the one who flew down a cold rainy weekend in February to help me install my lift.

One more point, and this is for the employee who truly has the high potential, consider equity shares / profit sharing programs. It makes them an “owner” in the business, and if done correctly, it helps them make the right long term decisions for the customers and the business, because it pays out for them in the long run VS how do I get away with more OT this week.

 

[sab]

Andy, I’ve had employees just like yours (gimme, gimme, gimme). Cut him loose. He will keep doing that to you. There are still good people out there, but it sure ain’t like when we grew up. Having someone like that around is worse than having his position open because when you’re not around, he’s planting seeds in the heads of any good employees you have. Like the media, if it’s repeated often enough, it becomes the new reality.

That’s the short version. The longer version I won’t put on a public forum.

 

[taylormade73]

Andy, look into EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System). We are 2.5 years into implementation. It has us focusing on RPRS (Right People in the Right Seats). We hire based on core value fit and GWC (Get It, Want It, and Capacity) first, talent/skill second. We can invest in and develop skill and talent (capacity), but not attitude and core values (get it, want it).

We’ve had to make some difficult decisions along the way (especially on those with high talent, but low CV fit that we thought we couldn’t survive without), but we are more profitable now than ever. Having the right people makes all the difference. I’ll PM you with my number.

 

[Apparition]

Andy, look into EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System). We are 2.5 years into implementation. It has us focusing on RPRS (Right People in the Right Seats). We hire based on core value fit and GWC (Get It, Want It, and Capacity) first, talent/skill second. We can invest in and develop skill and talent (capacity), but not attitude and core values (get it, want it).

We’ve had to make some difficult decisions along the way (especially on those with high talent, but low CV fit that we thought we couldn’t survive without), but we are more profitable now than ever. Having the right people makes all the difference. I’ll PM you with my number.

Went through that at my last job, problem with it was that the President there was in charge and was in a role he shouldn’t have been.

 

[taylormade73]

Went through that at my last job, problem with it was that the President there was in charge and was in a role he shouldn’t have been.

We are fortunate with the leadership team I’m on in that regard.

 

[AndyG]

Establish pay ranges for each role that give you room to hire guys into the same role with varying levels of experience. As an example, $12 - $15 per hour for X role DOE allows you to hire the inexperienced guy at $12 and the guy with 7 years experience at $15.

Establish criteria for increases. We use a stepwise approach that ties in seniority and productivity so even if someone isn't going to promote beyond a certain level, they've got room to increase over time with performance that's adding to the bottom line.

Incentive programs can also help. Maybe in your situation something tied to on-time completion or error-free work. In our distribution center, we tie productivity and error rate together for monthly bonuses and it's had a huge impact on both productivity and quality of work.

Monitor the market to make sure what you're offering is competitive. I prefer to be at the top of the market so I'm the place everyone wants to be and can then be picky to (hopefully/theoretically) get the cream of the crop. Play offense, not defense.

Finally, whatever structure or program(s) you put in place, don't deviate.

I'll always take short staffed with rock stars over 'properly' staffed with any mediocre or bad employees. People like the guy you referenced do slip thru the cracks. Hold your ground; let him walk or help him find the door. Good people are still out there - sometimes we just have to cycle thru some of the others to find them, and they'll appreciate a good environment that treats them fairly.

Love it. This is very good.

If this works out their will be clear criteria, duties and consequences for poor results.

Not sure he can handle the responsibility higher pay brings.

 

[AndyG]

Andy, I’ve had employees just like yours (gimme, gimme, gimme). Cut him loose. He will keep doing that to you. There are still good people out there, but it sure ain’t like when we grew up. Having someone like that around is worse than having his position open because when you’re not around, he’s planting seeds in the heads of any good employees you have. Like the media, if it’s repeated often enough, it becomes the new reality.

That’s the short version. The longer version I won’t put on a public forum.

Beautifully said. There is so much wrong with this situation already.

He should not have been hired back after he left with no notice for a higher paying traveling job that didn’t work out because it required commitment.

He should’ve been terminated five weeks ago when he showed his rear end in front of a customer and nearly came to blows with another employee.

He is poisoning the morale.

It’s reaching a point if I don’t do something I’m going to lose the respect of the rest of the team.

And the precedent this sets will be terrible- It will show him again in his lifetime that acting ugly gets in the results he wants, And it will demonstrate to the employees that I can be ran over.

The key now is to catch him in the best frame of mind to have the conversation- The disparity between him wanting a raise and me fixing to cut him loose is huge- This creates the kind of thing that you read about on the news every so often, and sadly why I have a handgun in my truck.

You know just sitting here going through this again and I’ve been through so many episodes with him feeling terrible- And Fridays have been unbelievable- he’s impossible to handle he wants to get his hours in but he doesn’t want to be here and has to be handled with kid gloves.

I want to do this with class and kindness and I want the best for him- But if he really doesn’t feel like he’s going to get it here he doesn’t need to be here.

 

[MikekiM]

Beautifully said. There is so much wrong with this situation already.

He should not have been hired back after he left with no notice for a higher paying traveling job that didn’t work out because it required commitment.

He should’ve been terminated five weeks ago when he showed his rear end in front of a customer and nearly came to blows with another employee.

He is poisoning the morale.

It’s reaching a point if I don’t do something I’m going to lose the respect of the rest of the team.

And the precedent this sets will be terrible- It will show him again in his lifetime that acting ugly gets in the results he wants, And it will demonstrate to the employees that I can be ran over.

The key now is to catch him in the best frame of mind to have the conversation- The disparity between him wanting a raise and me fixing to cut him loose is huge- This creates the kind of thing that you read about on the news every so often, and sadly why I have a handgun in my truck.

You know just sitting here going through this again and I’ve been through so many episodes with him feeling terrible- And Fridays have been unbelievable- he’s impossible to handle he wants to get his hours in but he doesn’t want to be here and has to be handled with kid gloves.

I want to do this with class and kindness and I want the best for him- But if he really doesn’t feel like he’s going to get it here he doesn’t need to be here.

This young man is toxic.

Reward him and he will do it again and again and who knows if another employee will jump on his band wagon.

Let him go and the pain is short lived.

There's no such thing as equal pay, it's equitable and it has to be earned.

You two have a chasm between the two of you as far as perspective on what is right. Tell him you appreciate his contribution but you're at the point where the words and music no longer match and he doesn't deserve to feel mistreated.. another employer might feel more aligned with his perspective. Have a great weekend.

If you let him go, make sure it is on a Friday, end of day. Polite tell him he won't need to come back on Monday. Yeah, it will likely wreck his weekend, he will be pissed, but you don't want to have him around a single day to continue to shit-talk and poison anyone else.

 

[AndyG]

This young man is toxic.

Reward him and he will do it again and again and who knows if another employee will jump on his band wagon.

Let him go and the pain is short lived.

There's no such thing as equal pay, it's equitable and it has to be earned.

You two have a chasm between you as far as perspective on what is right. Tell him you appreciate his contribution but you're at the point where the words and music no longer match and he doesn't deserve to feel mistreated.. another employer might feel more aligned with his perspective. Have a great weekend.

If you let him go, make sure it is on a Friday, end of day. Don't come back on Monday. Yeah, it will likely wreck his weekend, he will be pissed, but you don't want to have him around a single day to continue to shit-talk and poison anyone else.

Exactly I am 1000% convinced that we’re just setting ourselves up for another worse episode if we find any way to continue-

A friend of mine told me buddy if you don’t do it now it’s going to be about Christmas the next time and you’re going to feel terrible.

I’m following your advice to the tee.

 

[LukesfirstJeep]

He should’ve been terminated five weeks ago when he showed his rear end in front of a customer and nearly came to blows with another employee.

It’s reaching a point if I don’t do something I’m going to lose the respect of the rest of the team.

Give him his walking papers. Do him a favor and explain in detail, if he wants to know why.

 

[MikekiM]

Give him his walking papers. Do him a favor and explain in detail, if he wants to know why.

That guy likely won't get it...
Part ways, short and sweet. Say what is needed so as to not give him ammunition to come back with something else.
Nothing you tell him is going to change that he is going to twist it around. His perception is his reality.

 

[tnjeepguy]

Like this:

 

[MikekiM]

Like this:

I wee bit more aggressive than I would do it, but ultimately that would work.