Injury from soft shackle failure

[macleanflood]

If you want a fuse in a recovery system use cable ties. (Joking, ha ha...)

I think I picked up a cable tie every 15-20 ft on the Rubicon Trail.

Point being I'd rather NOT encourage people to use MORE throw away gear.

-Mac

 

[mrblaine]

then I guess you also don't like fuses, or what about circuit breakers in a house? Maybe we shouldn't have those either. All these things are purposefully engineered failure points to prevent excessive damage or in some cases catastrophic loss of life.

You have tried to equate fuses and breakers to be equivalent and if I don't like this dumb shackle idea, then I shouldn't like fuses and breakers. Here is why that is incorrect. In order for them to be equivalent, you'd have your electrician show up to wire in your home.
He wouldn't know the voltage coming into the panel.
None of the appliances would be labeled with their voltage and power consumption.
There would be no way for him to buy an off the shelf panel to put the breakers in.
He would have to figure out the wire size based on his experience, not an approved and proven set of rules and codes.

Fortunately for those of us that need and use electricity, none of those things are true and we have breakers etc. that are all very well designed and built to work in an exact set of parameters. Unfortunately, they burned down a few things figuring that out based on experience. You may not know the history of the use of aluminum wire in residential but the understanding to know exactly how to prevent bad things from happening took time and experience with some failures before they figured it out.

When you walk up to a recovery, you have none of the similar parameters spelled out. You don't know how hard it is stuck, you have no provenance and proven strengths for any of the stuff you might attach to. Without that, the best we all have is some experience, and some educated guessing until we start in and see what happens.

You don't want your electrician to install a 10 amp breaker to run your 5 ton AC unit where it is hot and tell you to try it and see if it trips and if it does, he'll step up to a 15 for you to try and I don't want a shackle to fail before I get the job done.

 

[CMBD]

I'm not sure what fuses you are referring to. But you still fail to understand my point. The point is not to make an item weaker than its intended design, that makes no sense to the comment of using 1/4" ATV shackles is just weird. But rather make the rest of the components stronger which inherently still creates by design a weak point. It doesnt make everything else weaker. Put this another way. You have an electrical circuit with 10ga wire. Maybe due to the length of that run lets say the circuit is fused at 40 amps. Maybe you're just not a fan of crumple zones designed into a vehicle's frame and body to re-direct forces to avoid loss of life.

If you just make everything the same strength, then you have absolutely zero clue what, if anything, will fail and when. However, if you have at least a known weak spot you know that will fail, then there is some type of predictability.

I mean, if you don't believe in having a purposeful weak spot then thats just the same thing as saying circuit breakers are stupid and should be removed.

There is a lot of fail in your point.

Using UTV rated recovery components (which is exactly what they are doing), in a for the most part possibly 20k(ish) rated system is weird. Its stupid unless you are in it for the money. You are absolutely "promoting" failure doing that.

What type of intelligent person that has done, or plans to do recovery, purposely adds failure into their recovery gear?

 

[ChadH]

There is a lot of fail in your point.

Using UTV rated recovery components (which is exactly what they are doing), in a for the most part possibly 20k(ish) rated system is weird. Its stupid unless you are in it for the money. You are absolutely "promoting" failure doing that.

What type of intelligent person that has done, or plans to do recovery, purposely adds failure into their recovery gear?

Nowhere in any part of my post did I say to use a ATV component. Stop throwing words in my mouth and read my actual post again.

 

[mrblaine]

Nowhere in any part of my post did I say to use a ATV component. Stop throwing words in my mouth and read my actual post again.

The only way to make a lower strength shackle is to step down in size. It's that simple.

 

[CMBD]

Nowhere in any part of my post did I say to use a ATV component. Stop throwing words in my mouth and read my actual post again.

That fuse shackle you are trying to justify is UTV rated stuff.

 

[cpwolf]

Nowhere in any part of my post did I say to use a ATV component. Stop throwing words in my mouth and read my actual post again.

So forget for one moment that it's "ATV", let's just go with the component is designed to fail at a point, like a fuse. What does that look like in a recovery? A breaker or a fuse, we know how they trip or blow, and they are controlled.

You mentioned crumple zones etc. Those are to mitigate the results of a catastrophic event. It seems to me, creating, on purpose, a recovery weak point....is creating the catastrophic event. When it fails, designed or not, bad things happen, creating a known point of failure in a recovery....seems dangerous.

And anyone who would have their 9 year old daughter in the seat of their Jeep or truck when doing a recovery...needs to be sat down to watch some of these videos.

 

[Mr. Bills]

Stop throwing words in my mouth and read my actual post again.

I read your actual posts, including this snippet:

In all my various projects in life I have always at least tried to purposefully create a known weak point.

In the case of recovery gear, the weak point appears to be your reasoning.

Equipment failure during a recovery can and does result in property damage, injury, and sometimes death. Purposely creating a weak point in a recovery system is not only irresponsible, it is stupid. How do you know that your purposeful weak point will fail exactly when you want it to and not at the worst possible moment? How do you know that any failure will necessarily be at your purposeful weak point and not some other component? The answer in all scenarios is that you don't.

 

[srimes]

The right-way to have a recovery "fuse" would be to keep it connected. Something like a shock-absorbing lanyard used in fall protection.

 

[mrblaine]

The right-way to have a recovery "fuse" would be to keep it connected. Something like a shock-absorbing lanyard used in fall protection.

How do you predict where it is going to break?

 

[srimes]

How do you predict where it is going to break?

You know the answer, that's the easy part.

 

[jjvw]

The right-way to have a recovery "fuse" would be to keep it connected. Something like a shock-absorbing lanyard used in fall protection.

That introduces a dynamic shock load, which is going to be a significantly bigger force to the rigging.

If the goal is to engineer a fuse into the recovery rigging, what are the parameters for appropriate sizing?

This idea of a recovery fuse is quite terrifying when vehicle recovery is already dangerous enough.

 

[srimes]

That introduces a dynamic shock load, which is going to be a significantly bigger force to the rigging.

If the goal is to engineer a fuse into the recovery rigging, what are the parameters for appropriate sizing?

This idea of a recovery fuse is quite terrifying when vehicle recovery is already dangerous enough.

A shock-absorbing lanyard introduces shock load?

I'm talking about these stitched-together straps where the stitches are engineered to fail at load, letting the strap extend in a controlled manner.

I don't see them catching on due to cost, but they'd be great paired with kinetic ropes.

 

[jjvw]

A shock-absorbing lanyard introduces shock load?

I'm talking about these stitched-together straps where the stitches are engineered to fail at load, letting the strap extend in a controlled manner.

There is absolutely a shock load. It is only a question of how much. Make the duration of the controlled failure last 40 feet and the shock load can be quite low when everything stops moving.

Regardless, I do not want my recovery rigging shifting and moving any more than is necessary. A fuse adds that potential and serves no useful purpose in this context other than to add more unpredictable risk to an endeavor already full of risk.

 

[jjvw]

...

I don't see them catching on due to cost, but they'd be great paired with kinetic ropes.

Context. I would want a safety lanyard on those occasions I am falling from something for the same reasons I can appreciate crumple zones and helmets.

 

[hosejockey61]

...for the same reasons I can appreciate helmets.

You never wear the one we got you

 

[Apparition]

To sum up this thread

 

[jjvw]

You never wear the one we got you

I did for exactly one day.

 

[red02tj]

If noting else, this thread prompted me to ditch the last of my Amazon recovery gear and replace with WRG

 

[MikeE024]

But rather make the rest of the components stronger which inherently still creates by design a weak point. It doesnt make everything else weaker.

If you just make everything the same strength, then you have absolutely zero clue what, if anything, will fail and when.

Running oversized gear with a properly sized “fusible link” increases the chances of failure at the properly sized item.

Alternatively, if you size it all correctly, then the gear will better share the load.

However, if you have at least a known weak spot you know that will fail, then there is some type of predictability.

Making a system more prone to failure isn’t any less of a bad idea just because I know the point at which the failure will occur.

I mean, if you don't believe in having a purposeful weak spot then thats just the same thing as saying circuit breakers are stupid and should be removed.

Electrical breakers and fuses essentially provide a rated auto-safety “off switch” so your house/building/vehicle/parts don’t catch on fire.

The analogy doesn’t work well compared to recovery gear since a “fusible link” provides the opposite of safety in a recovery situation.