Is a Savvy mid-arm kit (3-link front and 4-link rear) safe for the road?

Chris

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I was speaking with @David Kishpaugh the other day about dropping off my Jeep to have him outboard the rear shocks, install the RubiCrawler, and relocate my rear spring perches. We got to talking about extending my wheelbase in the rear a bit (now that I have the GenRight tank, this is possible), so that the wheels are centered in the wheel arches (right now they could go back about 2"). He had mentioned that my Savvy upper arms are currently extended so much, that he would likely have to build some tubing and extend the upper arms even more.

He was telling me I might just want to consider a mid-arm lift, but when I mentioned I drive it on the road, he had said something about 3-link isn't really good for a daily driver under load. Not sure what that means.

I'm trying to figure out if something like the Savvy mid-arm lift is safe for a vehicle that is driven on-road?
 
Not sure why he'd say that, in the roughly 60k km I drove mine the first year after the build, the only bad behavior I noticed was when coming off a driveway diagonally it would get a bit twitchy. The was 100% resolved by installing a rear Swaybar, the antirock over nothing at all made a difference.


There must have been a time
when we could have said no.
 
Not sure why he'd say that, in the roughly 60k km I drove mine the first year after the build, the only bad behavior I noticed was when coming off a driveway diagonally it would get a bit twitchy. The was 100% resolved by installing a rear Swaybar, the antirock over nothing at all made a difference.


There must have been a time
when we could have said no.

I think I was wrong, I just looked at what he said, and he said tri-link, not 4-link. Not sure where he got the tri-link from. Here's what he said:

"You do not want a tri link on a daily driver that will carry a load. I'd just stretch out the arms and keep the track bar with geometry correction brackets."
 
I think I was wrong, I just looked at what he said, and he said tri-link, not 4-link. Not sure where he got the tri-link from. Here's what he said:

"You do not want a tri link on a daily driver that will carry a load. I'd just stretch out the arms and keep the track bar with geometry correction brackets."
Ahh ok so he's talking about a front 3 link setup (also what I have.) the general complaint with that on a DD is that the axle could twist and affect the alignment on the side without a control arm. That's never been an issue for me(that I've noticed), but then again I run a prorock so maby that's why, I don't buy it though. The other reason is the lack of redundancy, if an upper control arm or bracket fails in the stock parallel 4 link setup its no big deal. If it fails on a 3 link it's going to rotate, hard. Now this I buy into, I had a weld fail on my truss during a test drive after the build. The axle rotated up twisting the 1/2 plate truss and jamming the pinion into the bottom of the control arm.

I was lucky, I didn't yet have a front shaft so I didn't damage that. I hadn't changed the round flange out for a yoke so it just ground against the arm as opposed to stopping and shattering. I was already hard on the brakes (bedding in new pads) and only doing about 20- 30 kph when it happened. My damage was only the truss and a divot in the upper control arm.

Replaced the truss and filled in the arm with weld. Good to go, however it could have been worse so that's the only thing that makes me think twice about a 3 link on a dd.


There must have been a time
when we could have said no.
 
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Ahh ok so he's talking about a front 3 link setup (also what I have.) the general complaint with that on a DD is that the axle could twist and affect the alignment on the side without a control arm. That's never been an issue for me(that I've noticed), but then again I run a prorock so maby that's why, I don't buy it though. The other reason is the lack of redundancy, if an upper control arm or bracket fails in the stock parallel 4 link setup its no big deal. If it fails on a 3 link it's going to rotate, hard. Now this I buy into, I had a weld fail on my truss during a test drive after the build. The axle rotated up twisting the 1/2 plate truss and jamming the pinion into the bottom of the control arm.

I was lucky, I didn't yet have a front shaft so I didn't damage that. I hadn't changed the round flange out for a yoke so it just ground against the arm as opposed to stopping and shattering. I was already hard on the brakes (bedding in new pads) and only doing about 20- 30 kph when it happened. My damage was only the truss and a divot in the upper control arm.

Replaced the truss and filled in the arm with weld. Good to go, however it could have been worse so that's the only thing that makes me think twice about a 3 link on a dd.


There must have been a time
when we could have said no.

This makes a lot more sense. We were talking about my rear end originally, so I'm not sure how he ended up on the front end and the 3-link, but I get what you're saying 100%.
 
This makes a lot more sense. We were talking about my rear end originally, so I'm not sure how he ended up on the front end and the 3-link, but I get what you're saying 100%.
Some people have been known to run a rear 3 link, I've no idea why you would on a tj but then again the nth degree is a rear 3 link so I guess there's something to it.


There must have been a time
when we could have said no.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chris
Ahh ok so he's talking about a front 3 link setup (also what I have.) the general complaint with that on a DD is that the axle could twist and affect the alignment on the side without a control arm. That's never been an issue for me(that I've noticed), but then again I run a prorock so maby that's why, I don't buy it though. The other reason is the lack of redundancy, if an upper control arm or bracket fails in the stock parallel 4 link setup its no big deal. If it fails on a 3 link it's going to rotate, hard. Now this I buy into, I had a weld fail on my truss during a test drive after the build. The axle rotated up twisting the 1/2 plate truss and jamming the pinion into the bottom of the control arm.

I was lucky, I didn't yet have a front shaft so I didn't damage that. I hadn't changed the round flange out for a yoke so it just ground against the arm as opposed to stopping and shattering. I was already hard on the brakes (bedding in new pads) and only doing about 20- 30 kph when it happened. My damage was only the truss and a divot in the upper control arm.

Replaced the truss and filled in the arm with weld. Good to go, however it could have been worse so that's the only thing that makes me think twice about a 3 link on a dd.


There must have been a time
when we could have said no.

By the way, is this talking about a 3-link front with a track bar or without? Or both?

Would the track bar and front 3-link (like Savvy does) make it more acceptable for on-road driving?
 
A 3 link needs a track bar to keep it centered as I understand it. I don't think you can get enough triangulation to do it efficiently without the 4th link.


There must have been a time
when we could have said no.
 
I do. It's been about a year and a half. The only real difference on the street with the 3/4 link is the added body roll. But that is part of what good shocks and tunable sway bars are for.
 
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3 link requires a track bar. One reason to do a 3 link on both ends is that the existence of a track bar, if done right (flat and high), raises the roll center of the vehicle. A higher roll center will decrease body roll through the suspension geometry. It's actually a very good setup, but the Jeep world has generally settled on a 4 link rear for whatever reason.
 
3 link requires a track bar. One reason to do a 3 link on both ends is that the existence of a track bar, if done right (flat and high), raises the roll center of the vehicle. A higher roll center will decrease body roll through the suspension geometry. It's actually a very good setup, but the Jeep world has generally settled on a 4 link rear for whatever reason.

Interesting. You're right, everywhere I look (GenRight, Savvy, etc.), they're all 3-link fronts and 4-link rears.

I'm strongly considering the Savvy mid-arm lift, but Dave's comment about it not being ideal for a daily driver under load admittedly scared me a bit. But it sounds like maybe I'm worrying over nothing. I don't daily drive it. I drive it on-road, yes. However, I probably put less than 1000 miles on it a year. It's not like I'm driving it to work and back every day.
 
Interesting. You're right, everywhere I look (GenRight, Savvy, etc.), they're all 3-link fronts and 4-link rears.

I'm strongly considering the Savvy mid-arm lift, but Dave's comment about it not being ideal for a daily driver under load admittedly scared me a bit. But it sounds like maybe I'm worrying over nothing. I don't daily drive it. I drive it on-road, yes. However, I probably put less than 1000 miles on it a year. It's not like I'm driving it to work and back every day.

I have at least 10k miles on the mid arm. Short of a failure of the upper link or track bar, there is nothing about it that would make me concerned.
 
I have at least 10k miles on the mid arm. Short of a failure of the upper link or track bar, there is nothing about it that would make me concerned.

Okay, I won't concern myself with it in that case. Are you running Antirocks front and rear?
 
Okay, I won't concern myself with it in that case. Are you running Antirocks front and rear?
Only in the front right now. I would like a rear AR because I think I could run stiffer than the the factory rear and not lose travel. But it is somewhat low on my list.
 
Only in the front right now. I would like a rear because I think I could run stiffer than the the factory rear, but it is somewhat low on my list.

Gotcha. That makes sense. On my last TJ with the Antirock, I remember feeling a bit more body roll after installing the Antirock and putting it on the middle setting. Does the mid-arm kit add even more body roll on top of that?
 
.. Does the mid-arm kit add even more body roll on top of that?

It does. The same reason it increases body roll is the same reason the suspension is more compliant. Less bind in the arms and track bar. This is an argument for the 3 link rear. Otherwise, all you can do is tune out the added roll with shocks and sway bars.

This isn't specifically because of the mid arm configuration. It is a phenomena of a 3 link or 4 link.
 
It does. The same reason it increases body roll is the same reason the suspension is more compliant. Less bind in the arms and track bar. This is an argument for the 3 link rear. Otherwise, all you can do is tune out the added roll with shocks and sway bars.

Gotcha. Dave wants to put on Bilstein 5100s when he outboards the rear shocks, since he did the math, and those are the shocks that will work best in terms of lengths. I know the 5100s are a bit stiffer, but perhaps that combined with the Antirock will help to mitigate some of that body roll.
 
Gotcha. Dave wants to put on Bilstein 5100s when he outboards the rear shocks, since he did the math, and those are the shocks that will work best in terms of lengths. I know the 5100s are a bit stiffer, but perhaps that combined with the Antirock will help to mitigate some of that body roll.

@Chris I absolutely love the Bilstien 5100 that Dave setup on mine. I think he prefers that over the Rancho 5000Xs for a reason. The combo of 5100s, adjustable track bars front and back, Currectlync steering and new Johny Joint control arms really made a big difference in how my Jeep drives. The man knows what he's doing for sure.
 
@Chris I absolutely love the Bilstien 5100 that Dave setup on mine. I think he prefers that over the Rancho 5000Xs for a reason. The combo of 5100s, adjustable track bars front and back, Currectlync steering and new Johny Joint control arms really made a big difference in how my Jeep drives. The man knows what he's doing for sure.

Yes, Dave--like Blaine--, has a reason for everything he does. He doesn't just pick parts randomly. He's got it all worked out in his head, and he'd never suggest something if it didn't work as part of the bigger picture. He uses Bilstein 5100s for all of his outboard shocks as far as I know... unless someone insists on having something different I suppose.