Is it possible to upgrade the A/C?

I was in 29 palms last week, I feel your pain :)

How about trying to fit a 12V Portable Air Conditioner Cooler - 30 Quart - 560 CFM Digital Multi Speed Fan - 12 volt?

Hotheads makes an insulating liner for the soft top:
https://hotheadheadliners.com/colle...-tj-soft-top-headliner?variant=32094211899458
I’ve been tempted to try one myself.

I installed the Boom Mat headliner on the hardtop and supplelemented it with some melamine foam and headliner fabric on the sides, and stuffed all the hardtop cavities with poly fill. That made a huge difference for heat, sound, and cooling, although the snow doesn’t melt off the hardtop anymore.

I also want to insulate the floor, especially around the transmission tunnel. That is the biggest sources of heat in most TJs. I’ll probably use Luxury Liner Pro (made by Second Skin), which is a product I’ve used successfully in the past
That headliner is awesome. Not so Awesome to install with the top installed
 
It is possible to overcool the condenser too far, to the point that high side system pressures drop and less fluid is forced through the orifice tube. But in normal operating conditions this will not be a problem.

Have you seen this happen in an automotive application or is that comment based on general principles of vapor compression refrigeration?

In our applications, the lower limit on high side pressure is the fact that a lot of HVAC-R compressors use the differential pressure instead of an oil pump as the motive force for internal lubrication. In our most energy-conscious applications, we have used a setup that actually turns the compressors off and uses a pump to circulate refrigerant at just enough pressure to feed through the expansion device. With the design practice used in the refrigeration industry that corresponds to about a 50°F saturated condensing temperature.
 
idk if my notifications stopped working on this thread or what but i missed a ton of really great suggestions in the 2021 timeframe. is it too late to go back and like a shitload of posts?
 
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Have you seen this happen in an automotive application or is that comment based on general principles of vapor compression refrigeration?

In our applications, the lower limit on high side pressure is the fact that a lot of HVAC-R compressors use the differential pressure instead of an oil pump as the motive force for internal lubrication. In our most energy-conscious applications, we have used a setup that actually turns the compressors off and uses a pump to circulate refrigerant at just enough pressure to feed through the expansion device. With the design practice used in the refrigeration industry that corresponds to about a 50°F saturated condensing temperature.

Never seen it happen, no. But it is one of the driving reasons as to why larger systems, like whole house A/C units (especially ones that double as heat pumps) often use an expansion valve versus an orifice tube like an automotive A/C.

With an orifice tube, the flow rate through the tube is limited by the viscosity of the fluid, the current low/high side pressures (which depend on a number of factors), and the size of the orifice.

However, an expansion valve, especially ones with external control, can usually more effectively meter out the refrigerant to optimize COP, output, and energy consumption.

An automotive A/C isn't generally designed with high efficiency in mind. Compared to a building A/C, it really only spends a small time of it's existence actually running. Over the lifetime of a 150,000 mile car, it may only run 2,000 hours before being scrapped. A building A/C might see more like 30,000 hours of operation over a 15 year service life, so efficiency is far more important.

In other cases, especially with small appliances like refrigerators and dehumidifiers, the high side and low side temperatures are usually quite predictable within a small range, and the compressor runs at one speed. In these cases, the ideal throttling can be calculated within a small band, and a properly sized orifice throttle can be used with very little loss in efficiency.

If I recall correctly, I think there are a few cars that actually do use expansion valves instead of orifice tubes. There probably would be a noticeable gain in efficiency if a proper control scheme could be drawn up. But in most cases, the engineering time and parts cost of such an improvement is going to eclipse the fuel savings (or profits, if you are an OEM).

I think the future trend will be more towards electric A/C compressors in automobiles. They can be very easily controlled, are not subject to variations in engine RPM, and will be more attractive to buyers looking at HEVs, PHEVs, and vehicles with auto stop-start. (Plus the obvious EV and EREV applications.) Even though there is a significant amount of energy lost in the conversion from mechanical to electrical back to mechanical energy, the vast improvement in the capability to control its function allows for far greater efficiency gains than simply modifying the fully mechanical system alone. This is also why OEMs are increasingly using electric power steering (or sometimes EHPS), electric fans, and even electric water and oil pumps.
 
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Since this was brought back to life, lot of people overlook the type of fan clutch and the difference it makes. Looking at the clutch used on the youtube test (you have to watch the first test video to see the clutch used) also helps explain those results. It appears the guy used an HD clutch like the Hayden 2771 with his stock fan so it turns the fan faster at idle on average but when the engine really needs cooling the extreme used with the explorer fan spins faster keeping the engine temperatures down. The HD clutch is an odd trade-off but can be worthwhile depending on how you want it to work.
 
Never seen it happen, no. But it is one of the driving reasons as to why larger systems, like whole house A/C units (especially ones that double as heat pumps) often use an expansion valve versus an orifice tube like an automotive A/C.

With an orifice tube, the flow rate through the tube is limited by the viscosity of the fluid, the current low/high side pressures (which depend on a number of factors), and the size of the orifice.

However, an expansion valve, especially ones with external control, can usually more effectively meter out the refrigerant to optimize COP, output, and energy consumption.

An automotive A/C isn't generally designed with high efficiency in mind. Compared to a building A/C, it really only spends a small time of it's existence actually running. Over the lifetime of a 150,000 mile car, it may only run 2,000 hours before being scrapped. A building A/C might see more like 30,000 hours of operation over a 15 year service life, so efficiency is far more important.

In other cases, especially with small appliances like refrigerators and dehumidifiers, the high side and low side temperatures are usually quite predictable within a small range, and the compressor runs at one speed. In these cases, the ideal throttling can be calculated within a small band, and a properly sized orifice throttle can be used with very little loss in efficiency.

If I recall correctly, I think there are a few cars that actually do use expansion valves instead of orifice tubes. There probably would be a noticeable gain in efficiency if a proper control scheme could be drawn up. But in most cases, the engineering time and parts cost of such an improvement is going to eclipse the fuel savings (or profits, if you are an OEM).

I think the future trend will be more towards electric A/C compressors in automobiles. They can be very easily controlled, are not subject to variations in engine RPM, and will be more attractive to buyers looking at HEVs, PHEVs, and vehicles with auto stop-start. (Plus the obvious EV and EREV applications.) Even though there is a significant amount of energy lost in the conversion from mechanical to electrical back to mechanical energy, the vast improvement in the capability to control its function allows for far greater efficiency gains than simply modifying the fully mechanical system alone. This is also why OEMs are increasingly using electric power steering (or sometimes EHPS), electric fans, and even electric water and oil pumps.

Yeah. I get the luxury of designing equipment with variable speed fans, variable capacity compressors, and have to use electronic expansion valves due to the turndown and wildly variable conditions (-20-120 ambient, etc). Not sure I've ever touched anything less than about 3x the size of a large residential system so I don't have the experience of the struggles of a fixed orifice.

WP_20160506_14_04_42_Pro.jpg
 
I went ahead and did this swap since I’ve recently replaced the pump, radiator and hoses. The fan is a little louder initially or when the passing air gets hot. A different sound overall. I think it flows at least twice the volume engaged and just a bit more when not. A nice looking setup. I did the swap without removing any other parts.
I used four M6 1.0 20mm 10.9 metrics flange bolts but I had to shorten them to about 15mm.
The old clutch uses larger bolts to attach the fan and the hub for centering the fan on the clutch is larger, so no swapping just the fan unless you make some modifications.
Both of the parts I received are made in USA.
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I know its been a while, but do you have any observations to share of this mod? How has it worked out for you?
 
The A/C in my Jeep works fine. Most places... But here in 29 palms the temperature is in the 108 or one hundred and teens on a daily basis and summer just got started.

I don't believe anyone makes a kit for it, but theoretically would it be possible to modify the system in some way to make it colder and blow harder? Maybe even route some flexible tube to the back to get the air to my kids?

What would it take? A larger blower motor? Modified hvac box and larger condenser?

The proposition even if possible would be most likely be too expensive and complex to follow through, but I found it to be an interesting question at least.

I had the doors and windows off for a bit, it was... Tolerable.

One thing that improved the AC in my last vehicle (that simply was not built for Vegas heat) was accomplished by adding split foam over the low pressure lines.

My aerospace engineering friend made fun of me —> until it worked. He then celebrated and did the exact same thing to his vehicle.

Iirc, I chose the split foam option at lowes that had the highest r-value. I zip tied the split foam with opening facing down to allow the condensation to escape.

I almost did this last week but didn’t bc I have the top down and will be storing the Jeep away soon.

It’s a cheap experiment that I believe could help a little bit by keeping the engine heat off the low pressure (cold) lines.
 
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One thing that improved the AC in my last vehicle (that simply was not built for Vegas heat) was accomplished by adding split foam over the low pressure lines.

My aerospace engineering friend made fun of me —> until it worked. He then celebrated and did the exact same thing to his vehicle.

Iirc, I chose the split foam option at lowes that had the highest r-value. I zip tied the split foam with opening facing down to allow the condensation to escape.

I almost did this last week but didn’t bc I have the top down and will be storing the Jeep away soon.

It’s a cheap experiment that I believe could help a little bit by keeping the engine heat off the low pressure (cold) lines.

I went to Lowes for some split foam today but none of it was labeled for it's maximum temp. Being underhood I didn't want to risk it melting or catching fire so I went for some foil backed foam. It's not as thick but I feel better having foil as the outer layer. I'll try to put it on when it's not 110+ in my garage.

I'm gonna try first just the line from the orifice to the firewall, as I believe this to be the most benefit by keeping more liquid to evaporate in the evaporator. The line from the evaporator back to the compressor won't have the same impact, but it could still help by keeping a higher suction gas density which in turn would increase compressor mass flow. The possible downside is if the factory left all these lines uninsulated intentionally to make sure no liquid made it back to the compressor, in which case we may be trading improved performance for shortened compressor life. The accumulator is specifically intended to catch liquid and allow it to evaporate so I definitely would not insulate that.
 
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I stuck a electric fan on the front of mine, you can see it In my build thread. Does wonders for the A/C, especially at idle and around town. Just forcing more air through the condenser. I’m also thinking about insulating the lines, so looking forward to hearing results on that.
 
I went to Lowes for some split foam today but none of it was labeled for it's maximum temp. Being underhood I didn't want to risk it melting or catching fire so I went for some foil backed foam. It's not as thick but I feel better having foil as the outer layer. I'll try to put it on when it's not 110+ in my garage.

I'm gonna try first just the line from the orifice to the firewall, as I believe this to be the most benefit by keeping more liquid to evaporate in the evaporator. The line from the evaporator back to the compressor won't have the same impact, but it could still help by keeping a higher suction gas density which in turn would increase compressor mass flow. The possible downside is if the factory left all these lines uninsulated intentionally to make sure no liquid made it back to the compressor, in which case we may be trading improved performance for shortened compressor life. The accumulator is specifically intended to catch liquid and allow it to evaporate so I definitely would not insulate that.

It’s closed-cell polyethylene, and there are different melting points available for that type of foam material.

Frost King (manufacture) should have the answer.
 
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In researching more ways to upgrade the AC, I came across this new product:

[URL]https://www.oldairproducts.com/product/heater-valve-kit-50-1555[/URL]

I think a few heater bypass valves have already been posted in this thread but this one is unique in a couple of ways:

1st it comes as an aftermarket retrofit kit. Pre-wired and easy to install.

2nd instead of being just on/off, the bypass is infinitely adjustable. Not really a huge deal for a TJ with a functioning blend door, but it could also be very useful if the blend door starts having issues.

This is a great mod, I do this on all the a/c units I install on street rods and early Broncos. I use a late model ranger heater valve which is vacuum actuated on the Jeep you can tee the vacuum line into the recirculating air door which will apply vacuum when the max a/c is on. The valve is less than half that price then a piece of hose and a tee will finish the job.
https://www.carid.com/motorcraft/19...WjzAMaDuFPjpQpuiG5slpQ-zJaQ7nFQBoCA3sQAvD_BwE
 
Just to add fuel to this fire: There's a guy on yootoob who did a back to back comparison between stock and the Explorer fans - and concluded that AT BEST, the Explorer fan wasn't any better, and maybe not quite as good. *shrug*

I saw that as well right before replacing the PO’s electric fan with a mopar fan. Replaced the cooling system with Mopar parts. No issues so far in 1-1/3 Tucson summers.
 
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It’s closed-cell polyethylene, and there are different melting points available for that type of foam material.

Frost King (manufacture) should have the answer.

I spoke with Frost King today in hopes to be more helpful to this thread.

Their Rubber pipe insulation is rated to 220* and their Polyethylene version is rated to 180*.

If I do it again, I'll go with the rubber version for the higher heat rating and slightly higher R-value 3.1.

They are both fire-retardant according to their customer service. The FK representative was not able to give me a specific rating over the phone.

- -

I also looked into Amracell's NBR/PVC rubber option (sold at Home Depot) and the R-Value is 3.3, their max-service-temp. rating is 220*, and it has a 25/50 fire rating. However, the smallest ID appears to be 3/4" ID where the frost king items showed available at 1/2" ID.

I'd probably go with the rubber frost king insulation if the sizing better matches.
 
I know its been a while, but do you have any observations to share of this mod? How has it worked out for you?

I’ve been running around doorless for a couple of months now and I’m not much of an AC user, but I do occasionally notice the fan is louder as I leave a stoplight with the heat in the mid 90’s. That should mean that the clutch is doing it’s job and spinning-up that fan during the idle. That should help with the AC. The only down side is that the fan is, for a short distance, quite loud after starting up and moving out.
 
I spoke with Frost King today in hopes to be more helpful to this thread.

Their Rubber pipe insulation is rated to 220* and their Polyethylene version is rated to 180*.

If I do it again, I'll go with the rubber version for the higher heat rating and slightly higher R-value 3.1.

They are both fire-retardant according to their customer service. The FK representative was not able to give me a specific rating over the phone.

- -

I also looked into Amracell's NBR/PVC rubber option (sold at Home Depot) and the R-Value is 3.3, their max-service-temp. rating is 220*, and it has a 25/50 fire rating. However, the smallest ID appears to be 3/4" ID where the frost king items showed available at 1/2" ID.

I'd probably go with the rubber frost king insulation if the sizing better matches.

Lowe's had 6 foot lengths of frost king rubber in 1/2" for about $7. The stuff I got was aluminum backed foam (probably polyethylene) and it's in adhesive tape form, so you wrap the line, and it's only 1/8" thick and R value is 2.
 
Lowe's had 6 foot lengths of frost king rubber in 1/2" for about $7. The stuff I got was aluminum backed foam (probably polyethylene) and it's in adhesive tape form, so you wrap the line, and it's only 1/8" thick and R value is 2.

I wonder (with my tiny little brain), if the aluminum-wrapping is any better for preventing melting of the PE foam versus simply running the rubber insulation version that has a 40* higher heat rating.