Is there an electrician in the house? Dead breaker issue

[Westtown Willy]

Among the many things I know little about is electricity, and specifically in this instance how to diagnose the following problem:

Few days ago I noticed my water softener LED panel was blank, typically it shows gallons until recharge & some other data. My first thought was the panel itself went dead but then I plugged a lamp into that outlet & I realized there was no power to it. I went to the box & found the breaker that was tripped & flipped it on, heard a buzzing/vibration type sound coming from an adjacent room & it shut right back off.

I then did a survey of all outlets on that circuit, altogether 7, spread out over three total rooms. Two of the outlets also contain light switches for overhead lights which are also of course dead.

To narrow this down I unplugged everything that was plugged into these affected outlets. I then tried to turn the breaker back on & it did the same thing, the buzzing sound followed up shutting off. I’m thinking something is shorted out but there’s nothing on the circuit now.

Next I pulled the covers off of all outlets to visually inspect, thinking I might identify something burned or chewed up, no luck. I then pulled the cover off the breaker box to look at the breaker itself for anything that might reveal, nothing.

So that is the extent of my ideas. I’m thinking that the breaker itself may have gone bad, or there’s a wire somewhere behind a wall that’s been compromised, likely by a good for nothing but destruction liberal. I mean rodent.

I’d usually call an electrician at this point as I’m only good for changing outlets, switches & installing ceiling fans but before I pull the trigger and call someone can anyone point me in a different direction that might help identify & fix this issue? Based upon the above does it make any sense to change the breaker & see if that solves the problem? I’ve never done that but I have a main power shut off outside on the box so I think I can make the change without killing myself, or is that a waste of time given the symptoms?

 

[Zorba]

Its unlikely its the breaker, but to check it, simply disconnect the load wire from it, and flip it on. I bet it holds, and you have a short/overload somewhere. Might be a nail/screw in a wire somewhere that has finally deteriorated to the point of causing this - I had that happen once. Or, yea, a Rodent or Goddess knows what. How old is the house? If its an older house, it could be anything!

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Narrow it down further by shutting off the light switches and checking again. Then double check that there isn't an outside outlet coming from one of the outlets on the circuit. If you're confident that all loads are disconnected it'll be time to troubleshoot the wiring.

 

[quaywe]

Narrow it down further by shutting off the light switches and checking again. Then double check that there isn't an outside outlet coming from one of the outlets on the circuit. If you're confident that all loads are disconnected it'll be time to troubleshoot the wiring.

Hi

Find someone to assist you, have them reset the breaker while you are "in the area" where you think the buzzing sound is coming from, try to narrow down where the noise is.
You may have to do this a couple of times to locate the source of the noise.

Once the noise source has been located, if it appears to be a device, Outlet, Switch, Light Fixture remove the device and temporarily put some wire nuts on the end of the exposed wires (for safety) and try and reset the breaker.
If it resets replace the device, if it still trips, make sure the breaker is shut off and after noting the connection configuration in the box open up all the connections and do a very thorough inspection of all the wires in the box.
You are looking for any signs of heat or arcing.
Loosen the cable clamps (where the cables(s) enter the box) and pull firmly on each cable, try and pull another inch or so into the box. Once this is done pull firmly on each wire (black & white) sometimes they fail where the cable clamp is, if all seems OK and solid the the problem is either the device itself or (unfortunately) "in the wall"

Before diving in and ripping drywall off do the same procedure to any adjacent devices, remember that occasionally installed "back to back" so check for devices in the room on the other side of the wall.

Also depending on the construction of the house it may be worthwhile doing the same procedure to all the devices on the circuit before getting the hammer and drywall knife out


My last resort would be removing all devices and undoing all the connections behind those devices tape or wirenut all bare ends (for safety again) and try the breaker if it still trips then the problem is between the breaker and the first device on the circuit. If it doesn't trip try slowly putting 1 device at a time back in service (terminate & reconnect) starting with the device closest to the panel and working your way to the end of the circuit.
Try to think of the physical order the electrician would have used to wire them.

And, it may also be worth getting an electrical contractor to check things out as well before opening up walls.

Finally replace the breaker, once it has tripped that many times it is probably compromised.

I know its a bit of a long post but I tried to cover all possibilities, post up again with the results and solution, hopefully. If still having problems also post again and I'll try and help.

I prefer not to use the PM system as I am really bad at replying .

Cheers and good luck

Geoff

 

[JEEPCJTJ]

Narrow it down further by shutting off the light switches and checking again.

I was thinking this, along with wondering if outlets and overhead lights are supposed to be on the same circuit. I think some local authorities don't allow it.

 

[Viking Jeeper]

I was thinking this, along with wondering if outlets and overhead lights are supposed to be on the same circuit. I think some local authorities don't allow it.

It would make great sense to me to have overhead lights and outlets on separate circuits but that is certainly not the case in my house built in 2003. I have ceiling fans, overhead lights, and outlets all on same circuits.

 

[KCHeidel]

Invest in a multimeter. Much safer looking for shorts with a meter instead repeatedly turning the breaker on & off till something catches on fire. Could be shorted receptacle. What kind of lights? If fluorescent, it could be a ballast.

 

[KevinC74]

Checked in your Attic? Some masked ANTIFA activists may have busted in up there and destroyed a light or outlet on the problem circuit. Tracked down a similar problem to a short in the Attic light with roasted squirrel beside it.

Anything that makes great sense can't be allowed Viking Jeeper, you know that.

House here was built in 50s and all overhead lighting is on the same pullout fused circuit. Appliances all have their own pull out and everything else broken down by room. Dang squirrel had to find the only rogue wiring in the house.

 

[quaywe]

Oops, message wasn't meant to be attached to a quote, can't figure out how to delete reply posting once started.
See next post.
Geoff

 

[quaywe]

Couple of things...

It is not uncommon to have both lights and receptacles on the same circuit, here in BC Canada it is actually included in the residential code.
My guess is combining receptacles and plugs is a regional/state/provincial practice

A multi meter is a great investment however in circumstances like this a arc trace on a receptacle or light fixture will not always show up on a low voltage meter, a Megger (high voltage insulation tester) is normally required.

I agree that the potential for fire is a risk however using the tripping breaker method may not be the most current or finesse-full but its very effective and the risk IMHO is low.


I was an electrician for 20 years before finishing my degree and moving on to automation & robots, I retired at 70 after practicing in the electrical field since starting an apprenticeship at 16 I've had many years of troubleshooting and never had a fire or property damage using the old school methods.

Cheers,
Geoff

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Once tripped a few times breakers can go bad and start tripping repeatedly at lower loads than rated at. Remove it and take it with to the hardware store to buy its matching replacement.

Keep your wits about you when replacing a breaker inside the electrical panel. Typically only a screwdriver is needed to replace it.

Keeping one hand in your pocket as much as possible during the job will reduce the odds you'll get jolted.

 

[Westtown Willy]

Excellent information, thank you all, I was finally able to figure it out. Days ago after I turned on the old breaker a few more times to try and figure out where the sound was coming from it must have killed the breaker because it would no longer stay 'on' and I wouldn't hear the buzzing sound, so I picked up a new breaker & put it in & boom, super loud sound. At that point it was obviously something shorting out but I couldn't figure out where it was coming from alone so I decided not to mess with it until I had someone else in the house to help.

When my girlfriend came over tonight I had her flip the breaker on for a second while I stood in the kitchen as I was sure that's where the sound was coming from. It wasn't. Next I went into the crawlspace and boom, as soon as she turned it on this switch/junction box or whatever it is literally burst into flames. I shit you not, bright yellow/orange flames engulfed it. It was the one box I couldn't get open in my earlier diagnostic phase, the screws came out but it almost feels like the box is welded shut???

Anyway, I stayed in the crawlspace for a good while to be sure nothing was smoldering & the box cooled down.

So what the hell happened? I figured I'd pry that fucker open next time I've got some free time but I'm a bit confused as to what happened here, other than the three wires going into it what could possibly be flammable inside there that would have caught fire instantaneously the second that breaker went on? Or are the flames just shooting out of the wires themselves because they're touching each other? And what do I do to repair this?

Again, thanks

 

[Zorba]

It arced to ground. You won't know why until you open it up and look (if then).

 

[Westtown Willy]

some more details, the house was built in 1965 so I'm guessing these are the original wires. This box is a light switch which operates a light in the crawlspace, then the wire continues on in the circuit & goes up into the wall in two places, two kitchen outlets.

Looking at this thing opened up I have no idea what happened or what I need to do, does all this wiring need to be replaced?

I still don't know what was holding the cover on after I removed the screws but I had to pry that fucker off with a pry bar & it still didn't want to come off without a fight.

 

[RMETeeJay]

Looks like you dodged a bullet!

This site should help you identify your type of wiring:

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Old_Electrical_Wiring.php

 

[Apparition]

View attachment 180602

some more details, the house was built in 1965 so I'm guessing these are the original wires. This box is a light switch which operates a light in the crawlspace, then the wire continues on in the circuit & goes up into the wall in two places, two kitchen outlets.

Looking at this thing opened up I have no idea what happened or what I need to do, does all this wiring need to be replaced?

I still don't know what was holding the cover on after I removed the screws but I had to pry that fucker off with a pry bar & it still didn't want to come off without a fight.

Even though I hate to call anybody to fix anything. I’d probably call an electrician and get it all fixed up and inspected.

 

[JEEPCJTJ]

IDK why I was expecting to see a fried mouse in a switch box that small.

That's original wiring or at least shortly after that house was built. You definitely need a new box and switch.

As for the wiring you definitely need to at least cut the "burnt" ends off. It looks like there is plenty of extra wire there but MAKE SURE THE INSULATION ISN'T READY TO CRUMBLE AWAY. It probably isn't but MAKE SURE!

The two black lower wires seem to both be connected to lower screw instead of pigtail wired to them then to the screw. That may have been OK for 50 some years and may be exactly what caused this problem today.

I just looked at the pictures again. If the remaining wiring does check out, I suggest using a square box with a single switch cover. It will give you more room for the wires and wire nuts on the inside. Lack of the extra room may have also played a part

 

[JEEPCJTJ]

OMG! I just looked yet again at the pictures.

Maybe it's just me but do I see some electric cable being squeezed between the beam and the joist to the upper left of the box?

If so, that also may have been OK for 50 some years but may be exactly what causes the next problem.

The cable touching the corner of the cement block probably should be stopped too.

I don't want to scare you but now I'll agree with @Apparition about an electrician. Not so much to fix the box and switch but so they can also look at anything else that's visible while they are there fixing it.

Any money spent should be well worth it.

 

[InOmaha]

Excellent information, thank you all, I was finally able to figure it out. Days ago after I turned on the old breaker a few more times to try and figure out where the sound was coming from it must have killed the breaker because it would no longer stay 'on' and I wouldn't hear the buzzing sound, so I picked up a new breaker & put it in & boom, super loud sound. At that point it was obviously something shorting out but I couldn't figure out where it was coming from alone so I decided not to mess with it until I had someone else in the house to help.

When my girlfriend came over tonight I had her flip the breaker on for a second while I stood in the kitchen as I was sure that's where the sound was coming from. It wasn't. Next I went into the crawlspace and boom, as soon as she turned it on this switch/junction box or whatever it is literally burst into flames. I shit you not, bright yellow/orange flames engulfed it. It was the one box I couldn't get open in my earlier diagnostic phase, the screws came out but it almost feels like the box is welded shut???

Anyway, I stayed in the crawlspace for a good while to be sure nothing was smoldering & the box cooled down.

View attachment 180539

So what the hell happened? I figured I'd pry that fucker open next time I've got some free time but I'm a bit confused as to what happened here, other than the three wires going into it what could possibly be flammable inside there that would have caught fire instantaneously the second that breaker went on? Or are the flames just shooting out of the wires themselves because they're touching each other? And what do I do to repair this?

Again, thanks

What's above the box in the room above the crawlspace. Because in the photo the beam on the right above the box looks like it has a water mark on it.

Water does weird stuff sometimes. The neighbor's dining room light would get water in the bowl when it rained from a certain direction. They finally found a loose nail on the siding. Water would run down the siding, past the nail, down the wall, across the dining room beam and down into the light fixture. But only when it rained just right and long enough.

 

[Westtown Willy]

Even though I hate to call anybody to fix anything. I’d probably call an electrician and get it all fixed up and inspected.

I came to that same conclusion this morning. I sent the photo to my electrician, he's an old Harley riding buddy I trust. He's going to come by next week and make the repair & take a look at all the wiring down there.

I've been in this house since 98 & I've done countless things myself but I've always drawn the line at electrical, beyond simple things like new outlets and such. But something like this, I don't think so, I just don't know what I don't know that could end up burning the house down... seeing just how much fire came out of that box freaked me out.

Kinda like this:

IDK why I was expecting to see a fried mouse in a switch box that small.

That's original wiring or at least shortly after that house was built. You definitely need a new box and switch.

As for the wiring you definitely need to at least cut the "burnt" ends off. It looks like there is plenty of extra wire there but MAKE SURE THE INSULATION ISN'T READY TO CRUMBLE AWAY. It probably isn't but MAKE SURE!

The two black lower wires seem to both be connected to lower screw instead of pigtail wired to them then to the screw. That may have been OK for 50 some years and may be exactly what caused this problem today.

I just looked at the pictures again. If the remaining wiring does check out, I suggest using a square box with a single switch cover. It will give you more room for the wires and wire nuts on the inside. Lack of the extra room may have also played a part

yea, when I was pondering doing this myself I was going to get all new stuff then replicate what was in the box, with a larger box to spread things out. But like I said above, just gonna pass the baton to the dude that knows for sure what he's doing.