Jeep guns

[StG58]

Discussions about the "best" self defence firearm is always fun, and always seems to come up in any thread about guns on a forum where guys congregate. I've thought about this post for a while, and actually started it a couple of times. Always thought better of it, and never posted this or even completed it before. With that said, here goes. My opinion on the subject.

All people have an undisputable, absolute right to self defense. It's a natural right that predates government. Just to make that clear up front.

Here are some things to consider if you intend to use any weapon to defend yourself. I'll focus on guns here, but the theory is the same for any weapon in a practical sense.

Don't carry a gun unless to intend to use it. Don't pull a gun on a threat unless you intend to shoot it. Don't shoot at a threat unless you intend to kill it. Keep shooting until the threat is immobilized and no longer a threat. Read this several times and let that sink in. Please don't strap on a gun and decide to defend yourself until you give it due consideration.

OK, you've thought about it, right?

Here's some practical things to think about as well.

You must be proficient with your weapon of choice. That takes practice. Consistent practice. Using a firearm is a perishable skill. If you think your life will depend on your ability to use a firearm...you need to be practiced and skilled.

Now that you are skilled and practiced with your firearm, find a good defense attorney with experience in firearms law. Talk to him. Carry his card any time you carry your weapon. Know a good man of the cloth who you trust and can talk with. Have a close friend you can talk with about any subject. One who is discrete and will be brutally honest with you. Have several tens of thousands of dollars and many hours to devote to defending yourself in court, even for a clearly justifiable shooting.

Expect to lose friends, maybe family, and be known as THAT GUY. Expect to spend the rest of your life second guessing your use of deadly force. Expect your mental health to suffer, at least to some degree and for some period of time. Your life will change dramatically, but at least you will be alive to deal with it.

Carry on...

My favorite self defense weapon is a 1911.

 

[Sundowner]

I wholeheartedly agree with that post (except for one inconsequential part), and I wish more people looked it that way. The bottom line is that only life is worth a life, and to that end, my father summed it up rather well: "If you use a gun, remember that you have to live with it, and that the other person doesn't." Thanks for posting, STG.

 

[StG58]

I wholeheartedly agree with that post (except for one inconsequential part), and I wish more people looked it that way. The bottom line is that only life is worth a life, and to that end, my father summed it up rather well: "If you use a gun, remember that you have to live with it, and that the other person doesn't." Thanks for posting, STG.

You're welcome. I thought it needed to be said.

(Didn't like my choice of firearm, huh? lol, I have my reasons...)

 

[BugoutJeep]

Yeah. I remember some quote or something that always stuck with me about, know that defending yourself will cost you at least $10k. You'll know the right situation to respond with deadly force when that's the last thing you're concerned about.

I know I'm bastardizing it, but it's something like that.

I've also heard, let there be only 1 story when the police arrive.

I always hate the old line that if someone was breaking into your house, you'd just shoot them in the leg or something. That's a small target and suggests you weren't threatened for your life, though it does suck for those that would hate to live with the knowledge of killing someone, but maybe I'm wired different, I just wouldn't want to live the knowledge that I could have protected my friends, family, pets, etc, but decided not to.

 

[BugoutJeep]

Picking your preferred weapon, may be kinda like picking your wife. Not sure if that's a good analogy or not, but basically it's personal and typical involves spending a lot of time. And I guess being wrong too could fall in that realm.

 

[Tray Burge]

Yeah. I remember some quote or something that always stuck with me about, know that defending yourself will cost you at least $10k.
More like 50k, whether its a justified shooting or not. There will be a civil suite in most cases.

 

[Sundowner]

You're welcome. I thought it needed to be said.

(Didn't like my choice of firearm, huh? lol, I have my reasons...)

It did need to be said, and you did a good job. It's easy for a lot of people to think that they're Billy Badass when they don't really understand what's at stake, and speaking on the consequences and repercussions is a great way to scratch the surface of what you go through when you kill someone.

No argument on your choice of firearm; I carry a 1911 from time to time, myself. My only disagreement was a personal matter involving the mention of a religious person - applicable only to myself - and did I not feel that I was being slightly untruthful by saying "I wholeheartedly agree" I wouldn't have said anything at all. I think that having a confidante on matters spiritual is a very good idea for most people, so I do endorse it, although I don't personally choose to go that route.

 

[BugoutJeep]

I tried to talk my buddy into getting the a Barret M82A1 with 20" barrel with an Eotech or ACOG mounted on it for home defense just in case Maximum Overdrive ever occurred, but he went with a single shot instead for range use.

 

[StG58]

It did need to be said, and you did a good job. It's easy for a lot of people to think that they're Billy Badass when they don't really understand what's at stake, and speaking on the consequences and repercussions is a great way to scratch the surface of what you go through when you kill someone.

No argument on your choice of firearm; I carry a 1911 from time to time, myself. My only disagreement was a personal matter involving the mention of a religious person - applicable only to myself - and did I not feel that I was being slightly untruthful by saying "I wholeheartedly agree" I wouldn't have said anything at all. I think that having a confidante on matters spiritual is a very good idea for most people, so I do endorse it, although I don't personally choose to go that route.

No issues...that is indeed a very personal matter. I did think it was worth mentioning though. For a religious (Judaeo-Christian) person, defending yourself with deadly force can carry a lot of baggage. Odin demands it, others, not so much.

 

[Sundowner]

Back on the subject of Jeep Guns: this is one of my newer options...but it's rapidly becoming a favorite.

Pictured: Model 69. It makes a loud noise.

It also makes one of the strangest blast patterns on a cylinder that I've ever seen; I sent this image to Smith and they promptly responded with "WTF?"

Pictured: Okay, they might have said it a bit more professionally than that...

In all seriousness, they couldn't tell me exactly what's causing it...but their best guess was a combination of 1) cylinder dehorning, 2) tight cylinder gap, and 3) powder selection. I don't know that #3 is really that relevant because I put several different loads through the gun and they all fouled the cylinder surface in the same way...but they were also very hot loads - 1400-ish FPS - so Smith may continue to know more than I do about what they build. And since it seems to shoot well up to 20 yards...

Pictured: Sorry about those fliers; it was getting dark.

...I'm really not worried about it. Most of that group was shot with 1100-fps stuff, but the hot stuff isn't that much worse, accuracy-wise. It's surprisingly good out to 25 yards or so; more than I would have thought. That, combined with the nice matte stainless finish, really makes this a hell of a carry/Jeep gun.

 

[StG58]

Nice looking piece. ...and I like that group, actually. Reminds me of my Redhawk.

That's strainge powder marks on the cylinder for sure. What's up with your brass? Looks like the case mouths aren't sealing all the time.

 

[Sundowner]

That's strainge powder marks on the cylinder for sure. What's up with your brass? Looks like the case mouths aren't sealing all the time.

Those scorch marks are a semi-mystery. We're not 100% sure what's causing them, but there's a working theory that it's related to the concussion-wave powder burns, because the side of the brass that burns is always facing outwards. The cylinders are both identical and near-perfect: I let my machinist check them, and they're all within .0005" of each other in every direction. Amazingly accurate machining; probably a fluke, but I'll take it.

 

[Twopoint]

I tried to talk my buddy into getting the a Barret M82A1 with 20" barrel with an Eotech or ACOG mounted on it for home defense just in case Maximum Overdrive ever occurred, but he went with a single shot instead for range use.

Barret? for home defense? for when he gets away so you can get him THROUGH 3 houses?

 

[BugoutJeep]

Barret? for home defense? for when he gets away so you can get him THROUGH 3 houses?

Do you remember the movie Maximum Overdrive? I think it's a Steven King novel/movie. I think like cars and trucks and stuff came to life and started attacking people? I don't really remember it, but seemed like a funny concept.

I kind of want to get a bunch of engines and stuff together and compare damage with high speed video between multiple rounds and distance. I saw a video of a guy that shot his F-150 I believe it was with a 50 BMG and I don't tend to like gimmicky videos, but I guess everyone has a weakness.

 

[StG58]

Those scorch marks are a semi-mystery. We're not 100% sure what's causing them, but there's a working theory that it's related to the concussion-wave powder burns, because the side of the brass that burns is always facing outwards. The cylinders are both identical and near-perfect: I let my machinist check them, and they're all within .0005" of each other in every direction. Amazingly accurate machining; probably a fluke, but I'll take it.

Half a thousandth!? That's veeerry good. Never owned a fiearm machined and fitted to that level of precicion. My Gold Cup is well built, but not that close to spec.

Do you load for your model 69? 44 mag responds well for me. I have an old long barrel Super Blackhawk that I hunt with sometimes. Practice at 25, 50 and 100 yards. Shoot Keith 240 grain (nominal) cast bullets at around 1,300 fps. Very accurate, and gets the job done.

Those powder marks on your cylinder and on the case mouths have me really curious. S&W was saying too fast a powder? I get those case powder marks occasionally when I use too slow a powder with too light a load and the incorrect primer.

 

[Sundowner]

Half a thousandth!? That's veeerry good. Never owned a fiearm machined and fitted to that level of precicion. My Gold Cup is well built, but not that close to spec.

Yep...half a thou, which I'm told is below the tolerance of the reamers, so it has to be the result of a valkyrie reaching down from the hall in Asgard, touching that cylinder, and saying "this one shall be special." It happens from time to time; just a random fluke of machining when everything lines up better than possible. My machinist has a cube that he milled several years ago that comes out to .0000" deviation, side-to-side and across every surface, corner and edge: totally impossible to do, but it happened...and the same thing has to be at play, here. The funny part is that such a perfect cylinder probably doesn't have any impact on the accuracy of the gun.

Do you load for your model 69? 44 mag responds well for me. I have an old long barrel Super Blackhawk that I hunt with sometimes. Practice at 25, 50 and 100 yards. Shoot Keith 240 grain (nominal) cast bullets at around 1,300 fps. Very accurate, and gets the job done.

I don't, yet; I only have a few .44's laying around, and precisely zero time to reload...but I have the feeling that this one would respond well to a load being worked up for it.

Those powder marks on your cylinder and on the case mouths have me really curious. S&W was saying too fast a powder? I get those case powder marks occasionally when I use too slow a powder with too light a load and the incorrect primer.

They didn't say "too fast"...they just said that it was likely powder-related. So, I take that to mean that the powder could be too fast, or too slow, or too much or too little or just the wrong fucking thing entirely. Personally, I think you're treading on the answer: it's just a bad combination for that gun. Accuracy-wise, I'm very happy: if I'd done my job correctly it would (likely) have been a ragged hole...but after fifty rounds, those shockwave burn marks are hard to remove, and that kind of ruins the fun for me. Now, to make things even more interesting: I found an older box of Gold Dot that was loaded up around 1400 fps, and they not only patterned beautifully, but they didn't leave nearly as much fouling as the other loads. No idea what the powder was, but I have the lot number and I thought about calling to ask and explaining the situation: they might be able to suggest a powder that's equivalent to the stuff they're using. Granted, those rounds also felt like the crack of doom when the hammer came down, but hey...that's nothing to be upset about.

 

[StG58]

Valkyries...lol...Now that cracked me up. We're on the same wave length.

I know what you're saying though. A perfectly manufactured firearm is exceedingly rare, but in the grand scheme of shooting doesn't buy you much. I have several examples. (Of the "how does this thing even shoot this well kind) Internal ballistics can turn out to be more art than science sometimes.

The ammo manufacturers don't use canister grade powder, unfortunately. You probably already knew that though. I really hope that your revolver doesn't turn out to be so picky on loads that you have to chase lot numbers. That would just suck.

I used to be really anal about getting my firearms surgically clean. Not so much any more. Especially my stainless one's. Now I go for clean and lubed, with a certain level of "well used and well loved" patina. Works for me and the guns seem to shoot a little better. More consistently, anyway. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy too.

I have an idea. If you have a buddy who reloads 44, work with him on a couple of loads for your Model 69. That might tell you a lot right there. A 44 shouldn't be the least bit picky on ammo. With that being said, not all guns like all factory ammo. I've got stories about that and a 44 carbine the wife loves to shoot. It absolutely love cheap CBC / Magtech and absolutely hates Remington.

 

[Sundowner]

Valkyries...lol...Now that cracked me up. We're on the same wave length.

I thought about naming her "Herja." Bonus points for you if you know who/what that is without looking it up.

I know what you're saying though. A perfectly manufactured firearm is exceedingly rare, but in the grand scheme of shooting doesn't buy you much. I have several examples. (Of the "how does this thing even shoot this well kind) Internal ballistics can turn out to be more art than science sometimes.

After a certain threshold, all the perfection in the world ceases mattering because the differences that such minutia could make are overshadowed by the differences that uncontrollable, large events will make. Rather: dialing in 1/20th MOA ceases being effective as soon as the sun comes out.

The ammo manufacturers don't use canister grade powder, unfortunately. You probably already knew that though. I really hope that your revolver doesn't turn out to be so picky on loads that you have to chase lot numbers. That would just suck.

I did know that, although my phrasing didn't make it clear. When I said "suggest a powder that's equivalent" I meant that they would be able to give me some vital data from their powder that would translate to a powder available in the retail world.

I used to be really anal about getting my firearms surgically clean. Not so much any more. Especially my stainless one's. Now I go for clean and lubed, with a certain level of "well used and well loved" patina. Works for me and the guns seem to shoot a little better. More consistently, anyway. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy too.

I've never been overly concerned with it, and I certainly love a bit of honest wear and tear on a gun...but those blast marks are just weird. I have a feeling that they'll etch into place one day.

I have an idea. If you have a buddy who reloads 44, work with him on a couple of loads for your Model 69. That might tell you a lot right there. A 44 shouldn't be the least bit picky on ammo. With that being said, not all guns like all factory ammo. I've got stories about that and a 44 carbine the wife loves to shoot. It absolutely love cheap CBC / Magtech and absolutely hates Remington.

I have a progressive press that'll turn out a ton of .44, and among the throngs of obscure calibers that you've never heard of (or never seen in person) there lies a set for a .44...but what keeps me from digging it all out and setting it up is exactly what you said: she shouldn't be picky at all. Now, results-wise...there's no issue: the worst group I shot was only about 30% larger than the tightest group, and that tells me that she's not one bit finicky - certainly not like some guns I've nearly thrown in the trash - so what this really comes down to is whether or not the oddity of the shockwave burns actually bothers me or not...and to be honest, it doesn't. It's kind of cool in a way, and I'm very dedicated to understanding them, but I don't really care to hunt for a round that doesn't cause them; that's just fixing a problem that isn't a problem. That said, when I have more free time, the press will probably come out...or I'll get my ass over to my buddy's basement and use one of his that's already set up.

 

[StG58]

Herja would be fitting. No bonus points for me though, I did have to go look it up.

This is an interesting conversation. Have a die set for 43 Egyptian? Some of those old cartridges are just way too cool for school. Especially the theory and history behind them.

Well, off to work. More later.

 

[Sundowner]

Herja would be fitting. No bonus points for me though, I did have to go look it up.

This is an interesting conversation. Have a die set for 43 Egyptian? Some of those old cartridges are just way too cool for school. Especially the theory and history behind them.

Well, off to work. More later.

Nope, I don't have that one, although I've been fortunate enough to fondle a Rolling Block that was chambered for it. I may also have a .43 Egyptian cartridge laying around somewhere.

Do you have a .219 Donaldson Wasp? Half credit will be issued for a Zipper.

No bonus points, but you get cool points for looking it up. I'm not sure if I'll go with that or not, but yeah... it's fitting.