John Deere & right to repair

[qslim]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor
It's a long read, but interesting. Bottom line is farmers have apparently been fighting John Deere for years over the right to repair their own equipment because their new machines are very software-based & locked down. The article focuses on one farmer's fight to install aftermarket software and otherwise support their own machines.

Reminds me of a friend in FL that had an indie auto shop focused on Japanese imports - at one point Lexus started refusing him the latest versions of access to tech data & special service tools. He got involved in some sort of class action lawsuit and eventually cleared it up.

From the article:

For Nebraska farmers, horror stories about tractors “bricking,” or shutting down from a computer fault, are as common as waterhemp in their cornfields—and just as annoying. A Deere spokesperson says, “Help is never more than a finger tap away,” referring to the communications equipment on modern farm implements. But getting a machine running again isn’t always quick. Bill Blauhorn of Palmer lost half a day of harvesting corn while waiting for mechanics to drive 65 miles to his farm to reset the software on his 2017 Case IH combine. The machine’s emission-control system would repeatedly ice up on cold nights and in the morning throw a fault code that prevented it from starting. In 2018, Blauhorn was racing to bring in the harvest before an approaching windstorm when the system wouldn’t turn over. He says the five-hour wait for someone to show up and do a half-hour software fix contributed to a loss of at least 15% of the crop. Since then he doesn’t take chances. “We just let the machine run all night,” he says.

Andrew McHargue’s tractor went down for an entire week during planting season while he waited for technicians to solve a problem. The Chapman, Neb., farmer paid $300,000 for the new machine in 2014, and over the next few years sank almost $8,000 into clearing fault codes. He finally mothballed the combine in favor of a 2010 model without the latest software and emission-control systems. The used tractor cost him an additional $160,000.

“I’m trying to sell the 2014, but nobody wants it,” says McHargue, a board member of Nebraska’s Merrick County Farm Bureau. “The whole disconnect is about who really owns it. If it’s mine, I should be able to modify and fix it myself. There’s no reason we shouldn’t have a repair system exactly like the auto industry’s.”

 

[Chris]

I didn't know this was going on with John Deere, but I'm honestly not surprised.

This is becoming an issue with more than just John Deere tractors. I recall an article not to long ago where Apple (and other smart phone manufacturers) are being sued over "right to repair".

The more advanced things become, the more computer and software driven they become. We've gotten to the point where you can't even repair your own vehicle anymore, because in order to work on them you need diagnostic machines and software that only the dealers or certified mechanics have.

I predict this is a new revenue stream for manufacturers, and they probably are well aware of what they are doing, and like it.

People like you, me, and these farmers don't like it though.

I go back-and-forth because as much as I love new technology and the way new vehicles drive, you absolutely can't buy a new vehicle with the intention of owning it more than X amount of years. New vehicles (including these tractors) are made to be disposable, just like modern day appliances (which is really all these vehicles are now).

Once upon a time a car, tractor, etc., was made to last longer than a lifetime. Not anymore. Now these things are like cell phones, where what they really want to do is force people to upgrade every X amount of years.

And then you have the environmentalists complaining about the climate change? Here's a thought... maybe if we made things to last longer, there would be less crap to put in the landfills?

In regards to those farmers, at some point I'm sure they begin to see the value of just buying an older piece of equipment without all the electronic b.s.

Sure, the newer ones are probably more comfortable, efficient, etc., but at what point to the pros outweigh the cons? I know if I was a farmer I'd be pissed if I had stuff like that happening to me.

 

[Apparition]

Sometimes it’s not fun as a manufacturer to correct 3rd party work on your product.

 

[ejay]

This has been an ongoing issue with Apple for many many years. Good thing I'm not an Apple guy.

 

[qslim]

In regards to those farmers, at some point I'm sure they begin to see the value of just buying an older piece of equipment without all the electronic b.s.

Yeah I think that was reflected in the article, I also read elsewhere that the market for used farming equipment has exploded because of issues like these.

 

[qslim]

Sometimes it’s not fun as a manufacturer to correct 3rd party work on your product.

Yeah, but I think the free market should be able to work it out. If a guy can come up w/ 3rd party programming that is robust & reliable and better suits the end user's need then they should be able to have at it. If that route isn't viable then people will vote with their wallets and stick with the manufacturer.

 

[Chris]

Yeah I think that was reflected in the article, I also read elsewhere that the market for used farming equipment has exploded because of issues like these.

I have no doubt whatsoever.

Even in our family I have one newer car, but I always make sure we have an older car as well (like the TJ for instance) where I know that if something happened, I could fix it myself if I needed to.

Try doing that on a Tesla or similar... good luck on that.

In fact, there was a good video from a guy on YouTube who lived with a Tesla for a while and ultimate wondered if he owned his Tesla, or if Tesla owned his vehicle. I can't remember who brought this to my attention. Was it you @Squatch?

Either way, it's happening more-and-more. You buy something, but do you really own it?

 

[Apparition]

I have no doubt whatsoever.

Even in our family I have one newer car, but I always make sure we have an older car as well (like the TJ for instance) where I know that if something happened, I could fix it myself if I needed to.

Try doing that on a Tesla or similar... good luck on that.

In fact, there was a good video from a guy on YouTube who lived with a Tesla for a while and ultimate wondered if he owned his Tesla, or if Tesla owned his vehicle. I can't remember who brought this to my attention. Was it you @Squatch?

Either way, it's happening more-and-more. You buy something, but do you really own it?

You have to remember these machines are more complex than Tesla’s.

Was riding in a combine a couple years ago watching the combine drive itself while moisture sampling the corn and Identifying the yield throughout different areas of the fields is impressive. Plus they cost 3x or so what a Tesla does.

 

[Daryl]

This exact same thing has been happening in the trucking industry. It’s always the emissions systems that shut these down. Sometimes it’s the software and sometimes the hardware (components). The lost productivity is staggering.

 

[Equilibrium31]

Very interesting article/topic.

It's a unique catch 22 that puts the manufacturer in control of one hell of a service-oriented cash cow.

I actually wonder if any sort of compromise would be possible, such as allowing a mod-able version of software to be chosen, similar to modding that's allowed in video games without creating too much additional expense or making the system too vulnerable to security flaws.

I go back-and-forth because as much as I love new technology and the way new vehicles drive, you absolutely can't buy a new vehicle with the intention of owning it more than X amount of years. New vehicles (including these tractors) are made to be disposable, just like modern day appliances (which is really all these vehicles are now).

We're in a pretty unique predicament because of our capitalist structure. Our society has been based on using self-interest markets to drive innovation, increase efficiency, improve our standard of living, etc. and for the most part, it's all worked pretty well.

However, I think there's a lot of short-sighted thinking baked into our lifestyle as a result. Take disposable packaging for instance. At the time, this was an incredible new technology for companies and for consumers. It allowed companies to sell their products without all the additional cost of cleaning and re-using materials, such as glass soda bottles. For the consumer, we no longer needed to worry about getting our bottles back to retrieve our deposit and the plastic bottles/aluminum cans were so much lighter and easier to store.

The downside, of course, is all the waste that's produced, but it would take so long for that waste to accumulate into anything that actually meaningfully difficult to manage that it was just easy to assume we'd solve that problem later with some next generation technology and move on.

And we've grown very complacent with this way of thinking. If we create a solution with a downside that doesn't harm us now, we'll just trust that our constant economic and technological growth will handle it later on.

The problem is that this assumes we survive our current problems long enough to make the next big technological leap to solve the next round of problems and the more we grow, the bigger those leaps will need to be.

 

[Squatch]

In fact, there was a good video from a guy on YouTube who lived with a Tesla for a while and ultimate wondered if he owned his Tesla, or if Tesla owned his vehicle. I can't remember who brought this to my attention. Was it you @Squatch?

I do believe it was me. At the very least, I've seen a number of videos and read a couple of articles on the subject. It strikes a nerve with me, to be sure.

 

[qslim]

Was riding in a combine a couple years ago watching the combine drive itself while moisture sampling the corn and Identifying the yield throughout different areas of the fields is impressive.

Never been in one, and I had no idea they could do that.

Another point of contention mentioned in the article amongst farmers was that John Deere was taking all that data that you're describing and selling it off to third parties without their knowledge (unless they find it buried somewhere in all the paperwork at the time of purchase).

 

[Apparition]

Never been in one, and I had no idea they could do that.

Another point of contention mentioned in the article amongst farmers was that John Deere was taking all that data that you're describing and selling it off to third parties without their knowledge (unless they find it buried somewhere in all the paperwork at the time of purchase).

Not exactly useful data unless you are trying to buy that farm and I’ve yet to see those records available. Generally you look at CSR, corn suitably rating, which is already provided by the USDA.

Crop moisture would be irrelevant except to determine yield and how much drying that particular crop would need.

 

[Phil Younger]

This is almost the same issue as this little group have with our Jeeps- we have our TJ/LJs because they are simple to work on as compared to any of the '07s and up. We some days might even long for the day of the carb and distributor and NO computer until we really think about fussing with that crap every 5,000 miles- plus the engines failing at 85,000 miles. For myself I never want to go backwards -yet I dread going where i can no longer tinker.

A big part of this mess for farms was brought on by EPA rules for emissions- it brought complication into engines like need for DEF or regen. It also means now that if one wants to replace a irrigation power unit that was mechanical injection and was $12,000 when bought, the EPA will not allow factory authorized shop rebuild past a certain original build date (about 2005). Just before the final Tier 4 designation kicked in that 125HP unit price had risen to $28,000 and after Tier 4 final became $45,000 —-so darn right some guys want the right to cut the crap and send them off for a rebuild. Combines and tractors are far worse because we want them to auto steer to the sub inch for accuracy (but one can choose the brand guidance or buy aftermarket in that small part. But what I suspect farmers really want is to be able to tinker with some of the fine functions and fix bugs. However- one thing the manufacturers are not going to be too keen about and the government fully backing them is tampering with anything that might have an effect on emissions. Farmers dislike the emissions systems that suddenly put the engine into a regeneration mode on low power so they have to stop operation or a sensor goes bad and a critical piece of equipment becomes an expensive boat anchor- and at that point the blood boils because the farmer had to pay more for less reliability. We really cannot compare this farm equipment to today's cars because this equipment steers itself, monitors itself and yield, plus dozens of other fine settings-— yet we still drive our Jeeps.

BTW- Bloomberg was an idiot for his statement about farming being nothing more than poking a hole in the dirt and pushing a seed in-— He showed his city slicker ignorance and belief he is superior. That don't play well with farmers who have millions invested and have serious business skills, wider range of skill sets than most of us could ever imagine. In the same day they may go from accounting to their welder to a meeting with family and employees, back to office to look at soil moisture probes, figuring out the daily irrigation plan, logistics of a nitrogen application, then out to the fields to spot check crops and meet with the agronomist. At midnight his cell phone may receive a text that tells him his irrigation rig 30 miles away has gone down and he is now an electrician working under flashlight on 480V 3 phase powered wet machine. It ain't so easy Little Mike--.

 

[oldb]

I read that article this morning. Farmers have been following it for a while now. The advances in farm equipment is simply astounding. It is extremely high tech. A well trained tech is necessary to fix it. Just as it takes a well trained tech to fix a new car or truck.
The question here is after the warranty runs out do you as an equipment owner have the right to fix it, or choose who will fix it or not. Not many of us have the money to own the latest Snap On Scanners, Fiat Chrysler, GM or Ford scan tools, not to mention paying the yearly licensing fees, but some independent repair shops do. We have options on where to take our cars and trucks for service and repair. Not so for farm equipment, construction equipment, processing equipment, etc. There is a lot at stake for the manufacturers. Where I live in Washington we have a John Deere, Agco, and Case IH dealership in town. Nearest Challenger dealer is 60 miles away. That is not too bad. For a Challenger service call you are only paying two hrs. travel time per visit, less with the local dealers. But there are areas in the US where the nearest dealer is several hours away. Shop rate is approaching $200.00 per hour. You could pay $1200.00 in travel time. plus the time for the tech to run codes, scan the systems and figure out what the problem is. Only to pay another $1,200.00 for travel for the trip back with the parts to fix the machine, not to mention the repair time and parts cost. The farmer paying that understandably would like to have someone closer able to fix his equipment. Or on a mega farm be able to buy the scanner and license and have the resident tech fix it in house. The guy who farms one of our farms lost the engine in his John Deere combine 15 hours out of warranty. The bill for remove and replace with a new engine was $75,000.00. Farming is not for sophomores any more despite what former candidate Mike Bloomberg thinks. It will be interesting how this one turns out.

B

 

[Equilibrium31]

I read that article this morning. Farmers have been following it for a while now. The advances in farm equipment is simply astounding. It is extremely high tech. A well trained tech is necessary to fix it. Just as it takes a well trained tech to fix a new car or truck.
The question here is after the warranty runs out do you as an equipment owner have the right to fix it, or choose who will fix it or not. Not many of us have the money to own the latest Snap On Scanners, Fiat Chrysler, GM or Ford scan tools, not to mention paying the yearly licensing fees, but some independent repair shops do. We have options on where to take our cars and trucks for service and repair. Not so for farm equipment, construction equipment, processing equipment, etc. There is a lot at stake for the manufacturers. Where I live in Washington we have a John Deere, Agco, and Case IH dealership in town. Nearest Challenger dealer is 60 miles away. That is not too bad. For a Challenger service call you are only paying two hrs. travel time per visit, less with the local dealers. But there are areas in the US where the nearest dealer is several hours away. Shop rate is approaching $200.00 per hour. You could pay $1200.00 in travel time. plus the time for the tech to run codes, scan the systems and figure out what the problem is. Only to pay another $1,200.00 for travel for the trip back with the parts to fix the machine, not to mention the repair time and parts cost. The farmer paying that understandably would like to have someone closer able to fix his equipment. Or on a mega farm be able to buy the scanner and license and have the resident tech fix it in house. The guy who farms one of our farms lost the engine in his John Deere combine 15 hours out of warranty. The bill for remove and replace with a new engine was $75,000.00. Farming is not for sophomores any more despite what former candidate Mike Bloomberg thinks. It will be interesting how this one turns out.

B

As someone that's generally gravitated to very risk-averse career paths, I gotta say that I have a lot of respect for farmers because the shit y'all have to deal with that is pretty amazing. From weather to pesticides from neighbors to macro-economic trends to government regulations to technology changes to mechanical failures and all sorts of other stuff, there's just so much that can turn all your hard work to ash and your business to ruin. Too stressful for me.

 

[astjp2]

As someone that's generally gravitated to very risk-averse career paths, I gotta say that I have a lot of respect for farmers because the shit y'all have to deal with that is pretty amazing. From weather to pesticides from neighbors to macro-economic trends to government regulations to technology changes to mechanical failures and all sorts of other stuff, there's just so much that can turn all your hard work to ash and your business to ruin. Too stressful for me.

Old news, went to the Supreme Court and ole green lost

 

[Apparition]

As someone that's generally gravitated to very risk-averse career paths, I gotta say that I have a lot of respect for farmers because the shit y'all have to deal with that is pretty amazing. From weather to pesticides from neighbors to macro-economic trends to government regulations to technology changes to mechanical failures and all sorts of other stuff, there's just so much that can turn all your hard work to ash and your business to ruin. Too stressful for me.

Good fences make good neighbors

 

[astjp2]

Old news, went to the Supreme Court and ole green lost

Actually I think Congress got involved before the Supreme Court did. But they were going to hear the argument