Looking for roll protection cage ideas

Rescue6

Long time wheeler
Supporting Member
Oct 12, 2018
105
46
Colorado
#1
I’m not new at metal work and have helped build a tube buggy a front sport cage, bumpers, sliders etc. I ordered a Rogue Fab model 600 bender of my own this week. So I’m looking for ideas on a new cage build for my tj. Ill be using 1.75” .120wall don and also have a 1.5” die as well. I need it to cover the rear area as I do use the rear seat occasionally. I also need a soft top to still be usable. I will build frame tie’s as well. Any pics of custom roll protection or tips are appreciated.
 
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Farmergreg

Just a "Web Wheeler"
Supporting Member
Mar 25, 2018
274
259
WC Indiana
#5
I’m not new at metal work and have helped build a tube buggy a front sport cage, bumpers, sliders etc. I ordered a Rogue Fab model 600 bender of my own this week. So I’m looking for ideas on a new cage build for my tj. Ill be using 1.75” .120wall don and also have a 1.5” die as well. I need it to cover the rear area as I do use the rear seat occasionally. I also need a soft top to still be usable. I will build frame tie’s as well. Any pics of custom roll protection or tips are appreciated.
Sweet. My son bought a rogue fab DIY bender with the 1.75" dies. He spent most of winter break from college working with it.

Here in early December DOM 1.75x.120wall was $144/20' and Electric welded was $85! (we went cheap!)
 
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mrblaine

TJ Guru
Supporting Member
Nov 20, 2015
2,961
3,229
Quail Valley, CA
#9
I’m going to start from scratch. Well I’m buying some front APiller lowers
Don't. Very bad idea. Run the A-pillar behind the dash or don't do anything. I wouldn't start from scratch, the B pillar in the TJ is stronger than anything you will put in there and it has appropriate locations for seat belts etc.

Now you going to get the part where your eyes will glaze over and you'll soon ignore all of my advice around cages.
If you aren't climbing in the window, you don't have a cage. You have something that you need to be able to predict the future about in that it will only protect you in certain types of accidents.

If you build an actual cage, it will need to be used with a helmet, 5 point harness and an appropriate seat. If you are not willing to do that, then don't build a cage. Cages do not have compromises.
 
Mar 29, 2018
1,051
756
Northern WI
#10
Stanchions are dumb. Stanchions are hazardous. Don't use stanchions.

I have my personal and functional reasons for wanting to expand on my factory cage, safety is debatably improved since the factory cage should have protected just as well. My main reason is to add some additional rigidity to the cage in the event of a flop or leaning against a tree/rock. In addition to the front additions, I will later be looking to add an X behind the front seats after I know where my fuel cell will be located. This simple triangulation will add in the bulk of the strength.
 
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Rescue6

Rescue6

Long time wheeler
Supporting Member
Oct 12, 2018
105
46
Colorado
#11
Don't. Very bad idea. Run the A-pillar behind the dash or don't do anything. I wouldn't start from scratch, the B pillar in the TJ is stronger than anything you will put in there and it has appropriate locations for seat belts etc.

Now you going to get the part where your eyes will glaze over and you'll soon ignore all of my advice around cages.
If you aren't climbing in the window, you don't have a cage. You have something that you need to be able to predict the future about in that it will only protect you in certain types of accidents.

If you build an actual cage, it will need to be used with a helmet, 5 point harness and an appropriate seat. If you are not willing to do that, then don't build a cage. Cages do not have compromises.
I get what you are saying about it not being a true “cage” if it doesn’t have door Bars and x bracing behind the seats etc. I have my PRP Seats and harness on order and the seats will be mounted tied into the tubing in the bottom. I could run tube through the dash to the floor then plates sandwiching the tub to frame ties up front instead of the 1/4” stanction type lowers I just thought they looked cleaner and see them on the GenRight and PS cages so I assumed they were good to go. As far as predicting future accidents etc. I don’t think anyone can even Jeep engineers. I agree the factory roll bars do a decent job except at the windshield frame area. I’ve seen them crushed. But hell this jeep is a 99 and has 119000 original miles on it as the last 11 years have been strictly offroad. I will admit I have fallen back in love with the damn thing in the last year and have been driving it more often but once this next round of mods is completed it won’t see much street except connecting trails or from camp sites to trail heads
 
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Rescue6

Rescue6

Long time wheeler
Supporting Member
Oct 12, 2018
105
46
Colorado
#13
If I was to keep the factory roll bars and ad new APillar through the dash with tie bars side to side above the dash and above the windshield and an two bars vertices inverted V centered in windshield. Then bars triangulated from A post bend at windshield and above the windshield bar to center of main hoop from each corner. Then from center of main hoop to corner of C post where it bends down and ad a cross bar tie from side to side there as well. Then x bracing on both sides from main hoop to C pillar on hoop. Then a single bar from top driver side of main hoop to bottom of passenger side main hoop. So someone could still crawl into the rear seat from the passenger side. I’ll try to draw it up tomorrow and post a pic
 
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Rescue6

Rescue6

Long time wheeler
Supporting Member
Oct 12, 2018
105
46
Colorado
#14
Sweet. My son bought a rogue fab DIY bender with the 1.75" dies. He spent most of winter break from college working with it.

Here in early December DOM 1.75x.120wall was $144/20' and Electric welded was $85! (we went cheap!)
Luckily I have a couple sticks already but I’ll probably need at least two more
 
Mar 29, 2018
1,051
756
Northern WI
#15
If I was to keep the factory roll bars and ad new APillar through the dash with tie bars side to side above the dash and above the windshield and an two bars vertices inverted V centered in windshield. Then bars triangulated from A post bend at windshield and above the windshield bar to center of main hoop from each corner. Then from center of main hoop to corner of C post where it bends down and ad a cross bar tie from side to side there as well. Then x bracing on both sides from main hoop to C pillar on hoop. Then a single bar from top driver side of main hoop to bottom of passenger side main hoop. So someone could still crawl into the rear seat from the passenger side. I’ll try to draw it up tomorrow and post a pic
Are you and all of your passengers going to wear a helmet? If you're retaining factory seat belts you need to worry about broken hips too. Liability may be on you if a passenger gets injured.
 
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Rescue6

Rescue6

Long time wheeler
Supporting Member
Oct 12, 2018
105
46
Colorado
#16
Are you and all of your passengers going to wear a helmet? If you're retaining factory seat belts you need to worry about broken hips too. Liability may be on you if a passenger gets injured.
How would any of the above tied in to the factory bars cause a broken hip any more than the factory roll bar and the factory belt itself? But as I stated earlier I have new seats and 5 point harness. I’m leaning toward a single third seat in the middle of the rear as well. The driver is liable anyway. It would be the wife and kiddo.
 
Mar 29, 2018
1,051
756
Northern WI
#17
How would any of the above tied in to the factory bars cause a broken hip any more than the factory roll bar and the factory belt itself? But as I stated earlier I have new seats and 5 point harness. I’m leaning toward a single third seat in the middle of the rear as well. The driver is liable anyway. It would be the wife and kiddo.
I wasn't following your bar placement, but assuming your building a roll cage you need a spreader between the a and b pillars across the door area. The factory seat belt allows for enough movement that you could slam your pelvis into this bar and shatter it. But if you're running a properly fitted 5 point that's not a concern.
 
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mrblaine

TJ Guru
Supporting Member
Nov 20, 2015
2,961
3,229
Quail Valley, CA
#19
I get what you are saying about it not being a true “cage” if it doesn’t have door Bars and x bracing behind the seats etc. I have my PRP Seats and harness on order and the seats will be mounted tied into the tubing in the bottom. I could run tube through the dash to the floor then plates sandwiching the tub to frame ties up front instead of the 1/4” stanction type lowers I just thought they looked cleaner and see them on the GenRight and PS cages so I assumed they were good to go.
No sanctioning body that does tech for any motorsport approves that sort of down leg on a cage. It only exists because folks buy it and it is easier, not because it works. So no, you don't see them on cages because there is no such thing as a fake cage or a true cage, there are cages and there are fancy CB mounts.



As far as predicting future accidents etc. I don’t think anyone can even Jeep engineers.
That is correct. And, since neither them, you, or I can predict the scope that will contain our rigs to a specific type of accident, flop, or roll, we have to build around that uncertainty which means you have full protection or you don't. If you don't, then why bother? It is akin to wearing a pair of safety glasses out in the shop when you are grinding that have a 1/2" diameter circle of protection right in front of each eye, that will stop most everything, right?


I agree the factory roll bars do a decent job except at the windshield frame area. I’ve seen them crushed. But hell this jeep is a 99 and has 119000 original miles on it as the last 11 years have been strictly offroad. I will admit I have fallen back in love with the damn thing in the last year and have been driving it more often but once this next round of mods is completed it won’t see much street except connecting trails or from camp sites to trail heads
Yes, the windshield area can use some help but what most miss is that is not an area that typically produces lethal results in a roll. Sure it distorts and gets displaced but if you draw a line from the front of the hood to the top of the B pillar, your head will typically exist just fine with minimal damage in the area under the B pillar.

As for the cleanliness of the angle type down leg versus the tube down leg, I suspect that may be due to not seeing one done reasonably well. Before I quit installing various offerings by the aftermarket for folks, I did this one.

1547301562799.png


It may occur to you to wonder why I quit doing that type work since it really isn't terrible looking. I quit for several reasons all of which were a common theme among every client that wanted the installation.
1-when I explained that frame tie ins cost as much to do as everything above the floor, they all declined to do them.
2-Each one explained that they understood they were not getting something safe but their Significant Other would not let them take the kids unless they did something, so something was better than nothing.

Essentially it boiled down to everyone needing to predict the future and thus keep their protection within the scope of that prediction and I won't be a party to that.

Almost lastly, at little illustration of why stanchion down legs are very bad. I used to compete in rock crawling events. I was the spotter. On one obstacle, you had to drive up high on the right side to miss a cone. It wasn't possible and the cone was there to be taken out. My driver didn't want to take it out as was his norm, very competitive. As he drove it up, it flopped to the left but there was a rock on a nearly flat section about the side of a basketball. When the rig landed, the rock hit right on the windshield hinge. From just a flop and low speed, it displaced the entire dash with the "cage" work over to the right about 2" forever ruining any hope or chance of getting a top or doors back on.

If you were to do a similar type flop that was on a narrow section with another drop off that would send you into another roll and that same type rock happened to be below the hinge where it impacted the area where the stanchion is, say right on the lower door hinge, it would fold with a quickness and very little force. So now the down leg that you want to hold the windshield up is full compromised and will not do what you want it to. At this point you may be thinking that perhaps that isn't so bad so I'd encourage you to remember that just inside that stanchion happens to exist the legs that belong to someone you are likely quite fond of. About the last thing you want is some bent angle iron in the same area your legs are as they are flopping around in a mild roll over.

The biggest reason I quit doing installs besides the above is I saw the false sense of security such things offered that may induce one to take more risky lines and speeds than is prudent. I would rather operate with the stock roll bar and mitigate my risks with my behavior.
 
Likes: Rescue6
#20
No sanctioning body that does tech for any motorsport approves that sort of down leg on a cage. It only exists because folks buy it and it is easier, not because it works. So no, you don't see them on cages because there is no such thing as a fake cage or a true cage, there are cages and there are fancy CB mounts.





That is correct. And, since neither them, you, or I can predict the scope that will contain our rigs to a specific type of accident, flop, or roll, we have to build around that uncertainty which means you have full protection or you don't. If you don't, then why bother? It is akin to wearing a pair of safety glasses out in the shop when you are grinding that have a 1/2" diameter circle of protection right in front of each eye, that will stop most everything, right?




Yes, the windshield area can use some help but what most miss is that is not an area that typically produces lethal results in a roll. Sure it distorts and gets displaced but if you draw a line from the front of the hood to the top of the B pillar, your head will typically exist just fine with minimal damage in the area under the B pillar.

As for the cleanliness of the angle type down leg versus the tube down leg, I suspect that may be due to not seeing one done reasonably well. Before I quit installing various offerings by the aftermarket for folks, I did this one.

View attachment 71910

It may occur to you to wonder why I quit doing that type work since it really isn't terrible looking. I quit for several reasons all of which were a common theme among every client that wanted the installation.
1-when I explained that frame tie ins cost as much to do as everything above the floor, they all declined to do them.
2-Each one explained that they understood they were not getting something safe but their Significant Other would not let them take the kids unless they did something, so something was better than nothing.

Essentially it boiled down to everyone needing to predict the future and thus keep their protection within the scope of that prediction and I won't be a party to that.

Almost lastly, at little illustration of why stanchion down legs are very bad. I used to compete in rock crawling events. I was the spotter. On one obstacle, you had to drive up high on the right side to miss a cone. It wasn't possible and the cone was there to be taken out. My driver didn't want to take it out as was his norm, very competitive. As he drove it up, it flopped to the left but there was a rock on a nearly flat section about the side of a basketball. When the rig landed, the rock hit right on the windshield hinge. From just a flop and low speed, it displaced the entire dash with the "cage" work over to the right about 2" forever ruining any hope or chance of getting a top or doors back on.

If you were to do a similar type flop that was on a narrow section with another drop off that would send you into another roll and that same type rock happened to be below the hinge where it impacted the area where the stanchion is, say right on the lower door hinge, it would fold with a quickness and very little force. So now the down leg that you want to hold the windshield up is full compromised and will not do what you want it to. At this point you may be thinking that perhaps that isn't so bad so I'd encourage you to remember that just inside that stanchion happens to exist the legs that belong to someone you are likely quite fond of. About the last thing you want is some bent angle iron in the same area your legs are as they are flopping around in a mild roll over.

The biggest reason I quit doing installs besides the above is I saw the false sense of security such things offered that may induce one to take more risky lines and speeds than is prudent. I would rather operate with the stock roll bar and mitigate my risks with my behavior.
Mrblaine, not to derail the thread but do the after market "sport cages" have any merit or just a way to spend money?