Metalcloak Kevlar Duroflex Joints

[Chris]

I'm not sure what (if any) impact this has, as it's hard to see past the marketing hype associated with "kevlar".

But, this is apparently news:

I'd love to hear someone with some engineering knowledge chime in on this. I'm not trying to start a war by any means, I'm just genuinely just curious as to what (if any?) advantage the Kevlar adds.

 

[bobthetj03]

Well, they sure do know how to appeal to their "niche" market. And I'm not saying that in a complimentary way. Usually, when you change, or alter an existing product, it's usually because you are finding something sub par with the existing design? Since I'm vested, I'm interested to hear what the smarter folks have to say as well. I guess it worked for Goodyear and their MTR, so jump on the bandwagon MC?

 

[Chris]

That’s what in trying to figure out as well. I see the “Kevlar” thing thrown around so often that I’m unsure whether it’s just marketing hype with. I effect, or if there’s actually some serious advantages to it.

 

[bobthetj03]

They've changed up their website too. Haven't looked in a while, but format is all different now. Will be interested to see if the price of their joints increases as well.

 

[glwood]

If nothing else you could make a vest out of the joint halves and you'd be all set for the Russian invasion, or the zombie apocalypse.

 

[bobthetj03]

I'll be able to crush zombie heads as I run over them with my Kevlar swaaaweetness!

 

[Matsonian]

Come on... bullet proof joints... what could be better!?!? LOL.

I will be the first to admit there is marketing value there - Kevlar is a well respected and recognized brand.

Afterall, after 8 years, the Duroflex Bushings just deserved a little refresher. We've been blessed with a great run and great customer response to their overall functionality and durability.

When we learned we could infuse them with Kevlar, we were skeptical - and incredibly cautious - why mess with a good thing, right?

But, after lots of testing (it took over a year to pull the trigger on production) we decided to go for it. Why not? If it can make the product even better for our customers and not change the price, that's a good thing, right?

 

[bobthetj03]

@Matsonian , without getting to technobabble, can you give us some details/advantages the the new formula will give us as the end user? I have your arms on my TJ, and have had no issues so far other than a small amount of cracking of the rubber where the joint is unitized to the shank. Will the new formula strengthen this area?

These are your rear upper DA's with about 10K miles on them.

 

[Matsonian]

@Matsonian , without getting to technobabble, can you give us some details/advantages the the new formula will give us as the end user? I have your arms on my TJ, and have had no issues so far other than a small amount of cracking of the rubber where the joint is unitized to the shank. Will the new formula strengthen this area?

These are your rear upper DA's with about 10K miles on them.
View attachment 45362

No worries... I am not very good at Techno-babble... I leave that to the well-educated engineers.

Our expectation is that the Kevlar will increase the long term durability of the joints. As we have seen on the forums and other posts, customers are getting a lot of use out of the existing Duroflex bushings. Adding Kevlar might just increase that usage. I say might because, like anything, we never know until the real world has its way. Those who put on our suspension in the early days know that, if asked, I had no answer for how long they would last, only that we expected, based on how the rubber was initially tested, at least a couple years of hard abuse. Thankfully that has proven to be a very conservative estimate.

 

[L J]

Usually, when you change, or alter an existing product, it's usually because you are finding something sub par with the existing design?

I don't have a dog in the fight because I have Savvy arms with Currie Johnny Joints ready to install but I have to say that statement is bordering on inane. Are you telling us you believe that there can be no improvement over the lifetime of a product?

 

[bobthetj03]

I don't have a dog in the fight because I have Savvy arms with Currie Johnny Joints ready to install but I have to say that statement is bordering on inane. Are you telling us you believe that there can be no improvement over the lifetime of a product?

I worded that poorly. Sub par was not a proper way to describe what I was trying to say. And yes, there is always room for improvement of a product. I do have a dog in the fight, as I have a full set of their arms on my rig, so I want to know why my investment needs improved upon. If Savvy were to announce tomorrow that they have improved the JJ's to be more durable(not sure how that can even be possible), wouldn't you question your purchase as not being the best quality you could buy? Both companies ask a premium for their product, so it's not like we are shopping for a bargain here.

 

[Mike_H]

Hmm....I'm not sure what Metalcloak is hoping to gain with Kevlar. I think it is interesting that they don't mention the gains in the video, and the one poster who seems to be a Metalcloak rep didn't really give any specifics regarding what they think it will do...just that they "hope" it improves the customer's experience. Just like I tell my employees ALL the time..."Hope is not a plan."

I would need to do some research myself to see what you might gain by adding Kevlar. I do know why most additives like Carbon Fiber and Fiberglass are added to Thermoplastics...but I don't know enough to say that Kevlar in rubber will react as it would in, say, Polypropylene.

 

[JMT]

I don't have a dog in the fight because I have Savvy arms with Currie Johnny Joints ready to install but I have to say that statement is bordering on inane. Are you telling us you believe that there can be no improvement over the lifetime of a product?

I worded that poorly. Sub par was not a proper way to describe what I was trying to say. And yes, there is always room for improvement of a product. I do have a dog in the fight, as I have a full set of their arms on my rig, so I want to know why my investment needs improved upon. If Savvy were to announce tomorrow that they have improved the JJ's to be more durable(not sure how that can even be possible), wouldn't you question your purchase as not being the best quality you could buy? Both companies ask a premium for their product, so it's not like we are shopping for a bargain here.

In golf, “sub-par” is a good thing!

 

[Matsonian]

I do have a dog in the fight, as I have a full set of their arms on my rig, so I want to know why my investment needs improved upon.

There is no immediate reason to replace your current investment, but, like any company that is always trying to improve, we would be fools to never strive for making parts better. It happens all the time to a lesser degree to every one of our other products. Rev changes occur regularly based on customer feed back or production discoveries that are never promoted, like increased clearance on inner fender wells or better radius's on tube fenders.

Adding Kevlar to our proprietary rubber compound that makes the Duroflex joint so effective is just a bet that they will do even better, and since the cost to our customers doesn't change, it is a bet that we are willing to take.

 

[Matsonian]

Hmm....I'm not sure what Metalcloak is hoping to gain with Kevlar. I think it is interesting that they don't mention the gains in the video, and the one poster who seems to be a Metalcloak rep didn't really give any specifics regarding what they think it will do...just that they "hope" it improves the customer's experience. Just like I tell my employees ALL the time..."Hope is not a plan."

I would need to do some research myself to see what you might gain by adding Kevlar. I do know why most additives like Carbon Fiber and Fiberglass are added to Thermoplastics...but I don't know enough to say that Kevlar in rubber will react as it would in, say, Polypropylene.

Great points. As a note, the video is the Metalcloak Minute... just designed for me, as an owner of Metalcloak, a chance to gloss over some basic info like "Backspacing", "Tire Pressure", and now "Kevlar" — more details will probably be shared in future, longer, more in-depth, videos, with someone smarter then me doing the talking.

You can definitely look deeper into the tech of Kevlar and the direct impact of Aramid fibers on strength and durability of materials. As a note, because we are considered a "Non-Licensee" in DuPont lore, meaning we can use Kevlar but we are not paying for the rights to promote with the Trademarked name, we are only allowed to state that our "Proprietary Rubber Compound made with Dupont Kevlar Fiber has increased long term durability" - we cannot, specifically, state that Kevlar is giving us more durability or more strength or good looks. Though at least two out of the three are probably true. ;-)

 

[GTboosted]

I see your point @bobthetj03

Thing is when you buy the "best" it doesnt always mean it will stay the best forever. As long as there is demand, it's in a company's best interest to continue innovation or risk being left behind. Sometimes they find flaws and sometimes they just want a better product. It happens with everything we buy.

Anyway I am no engineer but I can see how adding kevlar fibers will make it stronger. Kinda like how they make reinforced concrete or plastic with fibers.

With that said, I am not sure how or when they can use the word "kevlar" but if they are not licensed and still use it does it mean they can add one tiny spec of genuine kevlar into a big batch of rubber and then say it's made with kevlar?

 

[Chris]

Hey, I’ve said it time-and-time again in other threads, I would love to try a Metalcloak complete suspension system, honestly. I have nothing to compare my Currie setup too, because it’s all I’ve ever owned other than the OME.

I’m a big Johnny Joint fan... but I’ve also never tried a Duroflex Joint, so I can’t give a real world opinion of it.

 

[Stockli]

I’m not sure how Kevlar would make it stronger or last longer.

It is not very abrasion resistant and cuts easily. Only thing going for it is tensile strength

 

[Matsonian]

I see your point @bobthetj03

Thing is when you buy the "best" it doesnt always mean it will stay the best forever. As long as there is demand, it's in a company's best interest to continue innovation or risk being left behind. Sometimes they find flaws and sometimes they just want a better product. It happens with everything we buy.

Anyway I am no engineer but I can see how adding kevlar fibers will make it stronger. Kinda like how they make reinforced concrete or plastic with fibers.

With that said, I am not sure how or when they can use the word "kevlar" but if they are not licensed and still use it does it mean they can add one tiny spec of genuine kevlar into a big batch of rubber and then say it's made with kevlar?

Thank you.

And, just to clarify the licensing. Someone like GoodYear is paying to have the Kevlar Logo on the side of their tires in addition to making national performance claims with the use of Kevlar. Others, like many of the clothing manufacturers who add kevlar for just performance purposes (not referring to ballistic materials here) have the same license we do, where we can specify that Kevlar is included, but, per DuPont's website, allows our manufacturer to purchase the Kevlar material; allows us to mention Kevlar by name; but requires us to "tie performance claims to [our] product, not to the Kevlar® brand".

And, now that I thought about it, I think we did it the wrong way... we should have just swept some Kevlar dust off the floor and sprinkled it on a box of bushings... that would have been a whole lot easier. LOL. ;-)

:beer-toast1:

 

[jjvw]

Would the addition of Kevlar allow the Duroflex bushing to be used in the frame side of the MC track bar?