MiRustyjeep
- Thread starter Mike_H
- Start date
OP
Little Update:
Not much going on, just driving her as much as I am able. Hard to keep the smile off my face when I'm behind the wheel. She runs down the road SO good...
A couple of issue developing. I'm getting some MASSIVE brake fade, and some pulling to the passenger side. I'm currently running the Powerstop Pads and Rotors. Bought them before I even knew what a black magic brake was. The Powerstops are definitely NOT magic. I will need to investigate.
I need to finish up centering my axles and get the steering wheel re-centered. They are pretty close, but I bought adjustable so they can be PERFECT, damn it!
Finally, I have some new parts to put on. Picked up an Anti-Rock. The powercoating on the arms leave a bit to be desired. Its chipped and has adhesion issues. Since I bought the assembly from a guy who got it in a lift kit and didn't want it, I don't really have a warranty claim. So, I'll probably strip them down and have them re-coated. Kind of a bummer, but those are the risks you take buying second hand.
Been really thinking about the next steps of my build too. Reading a lot lately on different forums and doing some "independent research." As much as I like my current rig, I find myself on the wrong side of the clearance equation quite often. Whether its hanging the belly up, or catching control arms mounts and associated parts, I'm kinda getting tired of running out of clearance. Sure, I can pick different lines...Or try to throttle out. Most of the time, other lines are boring and throttling out breaks shit (something I like less than rust). Finally, as much as I hate it, mud is a big part of wheeling on this side of the country and especially Michigan. All this water is a blessing and a curse. Keeping the chassis out of the slop is much preferred to dragging it through the slop.
How does a guy gain more clearance? There is a tummy tuck. I've been planning on that all along. I don't really want to pay the coin on a Savvy. I have a welder and there is a racecar shop relatively close by that sells crossmember mounts and bushings VERY reasonably. I think I'm going to try and make my own. Design criteria includes a crossmember for the transmission and a relatively flat belly. The challenge is in figuring out how to mount the crossmember to the frame. That is where Savvy's system really shines. The way the X-member bolts around the body mounts is downright genius. I could just weld the mounts in. However, just welding the X-member to the frame is, IMHO, a less than elegant solution. The brake and fuel lines run along the inside of the driver's frame rail. Even though I can relocate the troublesome parts to the top of the frame rail, don't know if I want to do said relocation. Still noodling on that particular dilemma.
The second issue is how high do I tuck it? I don't know that I want to get real extreme. The 241 is BIG and the rear driveshaft is teeny tiny. I think if I go for about a 1.5" drop, I'd be in good shape. Nice flat belly, 3" taller than the factory Skid. Then again, I could design a relief in the skid and let it be nearly even with the frame rails everywhere but where it needs to be to clear the T-Case. It makes the project more challenging, but it also gains the most clearance and minimizes Driveshaft concerns.
Even If I decide to do the flat plate at 1.5 inches below the frame, that should still be about a 3 inch belly raise. In other words, about equivalent to running a 39 inch tire at the belly. That is pretty awesome!
How else does a guy gain clearance? The most obvious answer, to me anyway, is bigger tires. Its the ONLY way to gain clearance under the axle. This is problematic...because I'm built for 33's right now. I have 2 inches of spring lift and an inch and a quarter'ish of body lift. I barely have enough lift for the tires I'm running right now, let alone putting bigger ones on. Compounding that is my 0-2" shocks that provide a less than stellar 8 inches of travel in front and 7 in the rear. Not really enough travel to control the axles properly. That means if I want bigger tires, I need more spring. My current plan is 3" springs and some 10" travel shocks. I will be adjusting the shock mounting points to get them to be in a balanced position at ride height.
All that brings me to tires. I'm going to go with 35's. I've wanted them since forever, but tried to keep rationalizing that I didn't need them. Michigan doesn't have rocks, everything will be easy, its a frivolous expense that you don't need, etc. Meh, that is all bullshit. This WHOLE jeep build is frivolous, so why the hell don't I have 35's? I don't know...but I will fix that oversight.
"But, but, but," says the forum, "You only have 3" of lift. You can't run 35's!" I say Bullshit to that too. There are two reasons I can't run 35's tomorrow (well, three, but let's stick to suspension for now). One of them is clearance at the top of the tire (minor issue) and the second is clearance to the rear of the tire (much bigger issue). To that end, I will be doing something to my fenders. I haven't quite figured that out yet. It will require cutting my hood but not as drastically as full Highline. I'm not big fan of the flat fender look, but I AM a fan of simple, form follows function design, and from that perspective I can get behind flat fenders. I can take some liberties with the shape of the back wheelwell and make it look like it belongs with a flat fender design. It also should clean up the awkward transition of the grill shell to the fenders as well. Going to start sketching on that soon. I am pretty sure I can come up with something that takes good parts of a bunch of different designs out there, including the AEV highline, and meld them together for something that is perfect to me.
I'm curious as to the thoughts of others? All comments are appreciated.
Not much going on, just driving her as much as I am able. Hard to keep the smile off my face when I'm behind the wheel. She runs down the road SO good...
A couple of issue developing. I'm getting some MASSIVE brake fade, and some pulling to the passenger side. I'm currently running the Powerstop Pads and Rotors. Bought them before I even knew what a black magic brake was. The Powerstops are definitely NOT magic. I will need to investigate.
I need to finish up centering my axles and get the steering wheel re-centered. They are pretty close, but I bought adjustable so they can be PERFECT, damn it!
Finally, I have some new parts to put on. Picked up an Anti-Rock. The powercoating on the arms leave a bit to be desired. Its chipped and has adhesion issues. Since I bought the assembly from a guy who got it in a lift kit and didn't want it, I don't really have a warranty claim. So, I'll probably strip them down and have them re-coated. Kind of a bummer, but those are the risks you take buying second hand.
Been really thinking about the next steps of my build too. Reading a lot lately on different forums and doing some "independent research." As much as I like my current rig, I find myself on the wrong side of the clearance equation quite often. Whether its hanging the belly up, or catching control arms mounts and associated parts, I'm kinda getting tired of running out of clearance. Sure, I can pick different lines...Or try to throttle out. Most of the time, other lines are boring and throttling out breaks shit (something I like less than rust). Finally, as much as I hate it, mud is a big part of wheeling on this side of the country and especially Michigan. All this water is a blessing and a curse. Keeping the chassis out of the slop is much preferred to dragging it through the slop.
How does a guy gain more clearance? There is a tummy tuck. I've been planning on that all along. I don't really want to pay the coin on a Savvy. I have a welder and there is a racecar shop relatively close by that sells crossmember mounts and bushings VERY reasonably. I think I'm going to try and make my own. Design criteria includes a crossmember for the transmission and a relatively flat belly. The challenge is in figuring out how to mount the crossmember to the frame. That is where Savvy's system really shines. The way the X-member bolts around the body mounts is downright genius. I could just weld the mounts in. However, just welding the X-member to the frame is, IMHO, a less than elegant solution. The brake and fuel lines run along the inside of the driver's frame rail. Even though I can relocate the troublesome parts to the top of the frame rail, don't know if I want to do said relocation. Still noodling on that particular dilemma.
The second issue is how high do I tuck it? I don't know that I want to get real extreme. The 241 is BIG and the rear driveshaft is teeny tiny. I think if I go for about a 1.5" drop, I'd be in good shape. Nice flat belly, 3" taller than the factory Skid. Then again, I could design a relief in the skid and let it be nearly even with the frame rails everywhere but where it needs to be to clear the T-Case. It makes the project more challenging, but it also gains the most clearance and minimizes Driveshaft concerns.
Even If I decide to do the flat plate at 1.5 inches below the frame, that should still be about a 3 inch belly raise. In other words, about equivalent to running a 39 inch tire at the belly. That is pretty awesome!
How else does a guy gain clearance? The most obvious answer, to me anyway, is bigger tires. Its the ONLY way to gain clearance under the axle. This is problematic...because I'm built for 33's right now. I have 2 inches of spring lift and an inch and a quarter'ish of body lift. I barely have enough lift for the tires I'm running right now, let alone putting bigger ones on. Compounding that is my 0-2" shocks that provide a less than stellar 8 inches of travel in front and 7 in the rear. Not really enough travel to control the axles properly. That means if I want bigger tires, I need more spring. My current plan is 3" springs and some 10" travel shocks. I will be adjusting the shock mounting points to get them to be in a balanced position at ride height.
All that brings me to tires. I'm going to go with 35's. I've wanted them since forever, but tried to keep rationalizing that I didn't need them. Michigan doesn't have rocks, everything will be easy, its a frivolous expense that you don't need, etc. Meh, that is all bullshit. This WHOLE jeep build is frivolous, so why the hell don't I have 35's? I don't know...but I will fix that oversight.
"But, but, but," says the forum, "You only have 3" of lift. You can't run 35's!" I say Bullshit to that too. There are two reasons I can't run 35's tomorrow (well, three, but let's stick to suspension for now). One of them is clearance at the top of the tire (minor issue) and the second is clearance to the rear of the tire (much bigger issue). To that end, I will be doing something to my fenders. I haven't quite figured that out yet. It will require cutting my hood but not as drastically as full Highline. I'm not big fan of the flat fender look, but I AM a fan of simple, form follows function design, and from that perspective I can get behind flat fenders. I can take some liberties with the shape of the back wheelwell and make it look like it belongs with a flat fender design. It also should clean up the awkward transition of the grill shell to the fenders as well. Going to start sketching on that soon. I am pretty sure I can come up with something that takes good parts of a bunch of different designs out there, including the AEV highline, and meld them together for something that is perfect to me.
I'm curious as to the thoughts of others? All comments are appreciated.
Mike, you'll need new R&P gears for 35s. Factor that in the build plan, that's one thing I did not see you write about. And make sure to thoroughly check that things like ujoints, drivershafts, axle shafts are all really proper *prior* to the re-gear.
I'm pretty curious to see you what you come up with custom highline, what you described sounds pretty interesting. Same reg the custom tummy tuck. Both would be challenging but rewarding projects for you. Lots of small details to take care of. Looking forward to seeing your updates.
Also .. if you are looking for a set of 3" springs and think Savvy ones would do you good, I have a new unused f/r set of them sitting in my garage. I bought them a long while ago before I got deep into the vibe issue. I'm likely going to go a different route with mine and I'm not planning to do anything this summer, I just want to drive my Jeep for now the way it is. I was going to post in the forum for sale end of the month or so, but I'll give you a great price if you think these springs will work for you. Hope you don't mind me posting that here.
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OP
Thanks for the thoughts on gears and what not. You are 100% spot on that I'll need to regear when the time comes. I tried to focus on clearance and suspension vs what it takes to run the bigger tires. I'll need a BBK too...
Regarding the springs, I would be interested in the Savvy 3" coils. Shoot me a PM. Don't need em yet, but if you want them out of your hair, let me know.
I see a plan coming together. Great stuff Mike, as usual. You transcend me at this point in the Build. I can’t do what you are describing. I could only go as far as drawing it out, and the high line would be tough. I’m excited to see what you come up with.
On the tuck, I keep thinking, if I’m going to tuck, why not go all the way? Why put the time and effort in to just go part of the way? Just my thinking. There is a part of me that says, because it will be so much easier. But it’s a small voice
On the tuck, I keep thinking, if I’m going to tuck, why not go all the way? Why put the time and effort in to just go part of the way? Just my thinking. There is a part of me that says, because it will be so much easier. But it’s a small voice
OP
On the Tuck, I really don't know how far is too far. Like I said, I have a buddy that is playing with an LJ. He's pushed the T-case to full flat in the belly and his DS doesn't bind. He is running a 231 T-case and an LJ so the DS angles are not as extreme. But, not binding doesn't mean no vibration. I'm also fairly certain that the Savvy is not totally flat ...If they didn't think it was worth the effort, who am I to argue? This is just a plan at this point...and plans change.
We'll see what happens. Hell, I'm probably years away from this. Next winter is most likely body off frame rust eradication...at which point I can move my fuel and brake lines...which opens up welding crossmembers to the frame.
See, already changing my plan!
I believe the Genright crossmember is a welded type. Probably more vibrations are going to happen due to the transmission mount having less rubber. There was a thread I saw the other day where a guy altered the stock transmission mount by removing 1/2" from each side and welding it back together. He opined that he wished he had only removed 3/8" because he had to use a few washers to keep the TCase from touching the skid. At any rate, that may be an option. I agree that the Savvy is not totally flat, it dips in the middle.On the Tuck, I really don't know how far is too far. Like I said, I have a buddy that is playing with an LJ. He's pushed the T-case to full flat in the belly and his DS doesn't bind. He is running a 231 T-case and an LJ so the DS angles are not as extreme. But, not binding doesn't mean no vibration. I'm also fairly certain that the Savvy is not totally flat ...If they didn't think it was worth the effort, who am I to argue? This is just a plan at this point...and plans change.
We'll see what happens. Hell, I'm probably years away from this. Next winter is most likely body off frame rust eradication...at which point I can move my fuel and brake lines...which opens up welding crossmembers to the frame.
See, already changing my plan!
More rust eradication, eh? If you're a Rust Belt Heavyweight now, what class will you be in then?!
For the suspension and 35's, why not get even higher out of the slop and go 4+1.25? Seems like a lot of work to change your suspension to a 3+1.25 AND do a partial high line, all for 1".
I'm also fairly certain that the Savvy is not totally flat ...
From what I have gathered from Blaine the Savvy isn't completely flat so it would be structurally stronger. The drop on it is really minor and having installed one on a jeep with a np241 I would bet without it you would be cutting into the tub for clearance. And that jeep had a 1.25 BL. Like @JMT said someone was talking about the Genright weld on bracket with the low pro mount causing a lot of extra vibration.
OP
IIRC the GenRight X-member uses the factory trans mount and a couple poly bushings at the frame. I've looked at so many different options at this point, I don't remember all the nuances. Regardless, I've got the basic ideas in my head to retain the factory mount and have a bolt on set-up. But, until I actually get under there and start working, who knows where I'll end up.
I'm doing a 3" lift because I don't NEED a 4 inch lift. There will be less D/S angle at 3" and it will be easier to get in and out. That's not such a big deal for me (I'm 6'2") but my 5'2" wife struggles as it is. Also, and probably a bigger reason, is that a 4" lift will let you flex up with the wheels straight ahead...but if you want to turn, you run out of clearance at the rear of the fender. So, to keep the tires out of the fender, you need to add bumpstop extensions. I don't want to do that, so I'm going to cut the fenders.
This might help illustrate...
There is about a finger's worth of clearance there at full bump and full Driver's lock. A 35 wont fit. I don't want to sacrifice uptravel, and right now I only have 1/2" of bumpstop added. So, I'm moving the fender.
There are a lot of things I'm doing here that are different that what the "rules" say. I'm going to try breaking a couple and see where I end up. Pretty sure I'll end up with a rig that is a little bit of a sleeper...at least, that is the goal. In fact, I'm not sure I'd need to go with a 3" spring, but for the fact that I want some longer shocks under there.
The tire hits the fender right where the abs tray / battery live. When I installed my MC fenders they supplied new bracket but the rear of the fender is still my point of contact for setting the bumps. I'm at 1.25 with 35s. 1/2 of bump seems fairly low for 33's and stock fenders...
i'm 6ft tall and 4+1.25 can be a PITA to climb in and out of a bunch of times.
i'm 6ft tall and 4+1.25 can be a PITA to climb in and out of a bunch of times.
I think I follow. So, you'll move the fender up and back? Can you move the fender back without screwing up the grill area? Or do you just move the fender up? If you move it back you have to trim the JCR Crusaders too I guess.
BTW, I used my rock sliders on the trip before last, all the way up on the outer edge that breaks over, both sides were on granite, especially the driver's side. They scraped all the paint off along that edge, but absolutely no flex was permitted that I could tell. I was sitting there watching as I slid along. Some weight was on the TCase skid, but some on the slider as well. I prepped and touched up driver's side very well, the other side I need to do some more sanding on and re-coat.
EDIT: Some of what you are doing at least reminds me of CasterTroy (IH8MUD) build, at least the small suspension lift and modification of the fender. I think he's running 2+1 and MC's with 36's.
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OP
Yes, Up and back. The starting theory is that I can increase the angle of the rear of the fender, so that the grill area stays the same, but as you transition along the wheel well, around the radius at the back and proceed to the bottom of the fender, mine will be swept toward the rear of the vehicle more. Like this...The red line represents the new "edge" of the flare. I will probably need to cut the sliders back too. I don't need much, I figure 2" should do it. The plan is to cut the material out of the two inner supports (the things that hold the ABS and Battery trays), and simply bend the Inner back to meet them. Then reskin or cut the outer sheetmetal to match, depending on how I want my fenders to look. When you're thinking about this, its helpful to visualize the fender as two pieces, inner and outer. The outer is just two flat surfaces with a 90° bend in them...The inner is what needs to bend and move.
When CasterTroy cut his rear wheel well larger toward the rear to accommodate the 36's, I remember he told me he trimmed the outer edge of the flare off, maybe 1.25" in order to decrease the rigidity so he could bend them to the new shape. Looked good though. I'm looking at your pic and wondering how much room you have between the flare and the slider/step. Doesn't look like much, hopefully 2".
Can you push the front axle forward any with your CA's without creating a lot of other problems? e.g. longer front driveshaft, arched coil springs and misalignment of bump stops, track bar interferences with front diff. As I think out loud here, I think your plan is better.
The Savvy skid hangs down about 1.75" at the middle ~12". Then it slopes up to the frame rails.
Raise the skid as much as you can. Going higher up than Savvy means a taller body lift or chopping up the floor.
My build thread has several ideas for a sleeper type build. This includes raising the side body mounts and the rear frame/bumper. I have also been investigating 35s with 6" of up travel. The concerns should all still apply for a lower lift. There is a good amount of fender discussion as well.
My thoughts are that there are reasons why the Currie 4" works really well for 33/35" tires if you are willing to do the rest of the work to maintain suspension travel.
Raise the skid as much as you can. Going higher up than Savvy means a taller body lift or chopping up the floor.
My build thread has several ideas for a sleeper type build. This includes raising the side body mounts and the rear frame/bumper. I have also been investigating 35s with 6" of up travel. The concerns should all still apply for a lower lift. There is a good amount of fender discussion as well.
My thoughts are that there are reasons why the Currie 4" works really well for 33/35" tires if you are willing to do the rest of the work to maintain suspension travel.
OP
Thanks for commenting!
I agree with you if maintaining the original body is a concern. I'm just looking at other methods. The easy way is just throw some 4" springs in and set it up properly. Ironically, I already have the Currie control arms, JKS Adjustable trackbars and an anti-rock. So, I'm almost at the Currie 4" lift as it is. I should probably just throw some longer springs in, fab up a couple mounts to shoehorns some 10 or 11 inch shocks in and run it.
Incidentally, your thread is one of those that introduced me to uptravel. I mean, I knew what it was (its not a difficult concept) but really thinking about what it means to the performance of the vehicle. I'm in the middle of reading @Sundowner's thread on Jeep Forum and I hear @mrblaine's voice in the back of my head all the time (in a "What would Mr.Blaine do" kinda way). @toximus has posted up some great stuff too. I'm absorbing as much as I can and trying to actually think about what I want this thing to do in my unique situation and environment without just copying every other build out there.
I'm not saying I have all the answers...but I do believe I'm apply some higher levels of thought to the challenge...I hope to be operating at least in the systhesis level...I feel like I'm creating some original ideas based on the experience of others.
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Yep, you and me both, to be fair I had no idea how much I would enjoy trail riding when I installed the 2" OME hd kit and body lift on 33's.
I also plan to go to 35s but getting one more season of the 33' tires and current set up, then will be 4" springs and or maybe 3" springs with paint matched Poison Spyder highline armor.... I've come to the realization that my jeep has 135k on the clock, has quite a few hillbilly pinstripes and I don't see myself selling it for significant value anytime soon.
Jelious of your plans and skills to get it done, I took the easier road with the UCF original extra skid thinking I'd be going with a higher lift, knowing a slightly less tuck would help with driveline angles. Gaining over 2" was good enough for me and really has helped on the trails.
Can't wait to see the body work! Like where this build is heading!
@Mike_H I'm going to vote with @IPerkWVU and hit the EZ button (Savvy, Genright, UCF) on the belly skid. I'm 55 years old and just want get out and enjoy my toy (LJR) and not reinvent the wheel.
From reading your thread and your level of commitment to getting it right, I have no doubt that you have the ability to do anything you put your mind to.
In my case even with a well equipped shop (and a pile of farm equipment around needing continuous maintenance) I don't take the time to build something that already has several good solutions available.
Now the fenders, that will be interesting....
From reading your thread and your level of commitment to getting it right, I have no doubt that you have the ability to do anything you put your mind to.
In my case even with a well equipped shop (and a pile of farm equipment around needing continuous maintenance) I don't take the time to build something that already has several good solutions available.
Now the fenders, that will be interesting....
OP
Not too much going on in the garage currently (well on the jeep, anyway) but I did get my anti-rock mounted. It went in without drama. When it came to mount the link though...Well, an Anti-Rock is not designed for a 2" spring lift. The links are far too long for such a short lift. So...I'm running my discos. Yes...I'm running discos on an Anti-Rock. I will replace them when I find a sale or free shipping.
Driving impressions? Its pretty uneventful. Yes, There is more roll. I'm running the loosest setting and I can feel (and see) the front of the Jeep moving more than it used to. Is it scary? Nope, not in the least. I am planning a wheeling trip next weekend, so I'll give a little update after that about how it works offroad.
What else is going on...OH! I almost forgot. I must not have gotten one of my JJ's put together all the way. I was doing a quick bolt inspection the same weekend I installed the Anti-Rock and noticed that one of my rear uppers had come apart. No biggie, I was able to put it back together easily, but it is just a reminder to check your stuff!
Finally I took her in to get the tires balanced. The chain store that mounted them last year did a pretty shitty job balancing them. Don't remember why I didn't get them back to be rebalanced, but I didn't. Anyway, I had to local guys do it this time. Didn't realize it at the time, but they have a road force balancing machine. They are SO much better. Well worth the 80 bucks. I can actually use my mirrors at highway speeds again.
That is about it. Just enjoying the ride. She is driving so great right now...
Driving impressions? Its pretty uneventful. Yes, There is more roll. I'm running the loosest setting and I can feel (and see) the front of the Jeep moving more than it used to. Is it scary? Nope, not in the least. I am planning a wheeling trip next weekend, so I'll give a little update after that about how it works offroad.
What else is going on...OH! I almost forgot. I must not have gotten one of my JJ's put together all the way. I was doing a quick bolt inspection the same weekend I installed the Anti-Rock and noticed that one of my rear uppers had come apart. No biggie, I was able to put it back together easily, but it is just a reminder to check your stuff!
Finally I took her in to get the tires balanced. The chain store that mounted them last year did a pretty shitty job balancing them. Don't remember why I didn't get them back to be rebalanced, but I didn't. Anyway, I had to local guys do it this time. Didn't realize it at the time, but they have a road force balancing machine. They are SO much better. Well worth the 80 bucks. I can actually use my mirrors at highway speeds again.
That is about it. Just enjoying the ride. She is driving so great right now...
So, I purchased an Anti-Rock during one of the better sales. I also have OME 2" springs. Are you saying this is going to be a problem? I don't recall if the AR comes with links, or not. If so, they're too long? What options are there available?
I took the maximum amount off leaving room for the jam nut and link head, 2 inches off each link. You can also buy 6.5" links from Currie. Mine works fine