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Need new brake soft lines (updated)

Artsifrtsi

I just wanna go wheeling...
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Drove home last night, and started getting brake burn smell on a couple mile descent, then a pull to the right when coming to a stop. No dragging or pulling for the first 20 minutes or so of driving, but hitting the stop and go at the top of the hill, after warming up fully, it starts dragging. Pulled into driveway (all highway after the traffic for 5 miles), and right front disk was smoking. Just replaced the master cyl, booster, pads/rotors/calipers a few years ago, have maybe 2500 miles on the new parts... rotors still look new. Jeep has 130K miles, and original lines. I'll dig further into it this weekend checking the caliper movement, but I'm fairly certain that it may be the soft lines collapsing internally... could also be the master cyl.

What are the recommendations for new lines? I do plan on a 3-4 inch lift and 33's within the next few months. Is it worth it to go with something like the KLM lines?
 

Mobusaki

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Drove home last night, and started getting brake burn smell on a couple mile descent, then a pull to the right when coming to a stop. No dragging or pulling for the first 20 minutes or so of driving, but hitting the stop and go at the top of the hill, after warming up fully, it starts dragging. Pulled into driveway (all highway after the traffic for 5 miles), and right front disk was smoking. Just replaced the master cyl, booster, pads/rotors/calipers a few years ago, have maybe 2500 miles on the new parts... rotors still look new. Jeep has 130K miles, and original lines. I'll dig further into it this weekend checking the caliper movement, but I'm fairly certain that it may be the soft lines collapsing internally... could also be the master cyl.

What are the recommendations for new lines? I do plan on a 3-4 inch lift and 33's within the next few months. Is it worth it to go with something like the KLM lines?

It's probably just gunk in the brake caliper itself. That's what it was for me on two TJs when a brake locked up. Gunk tends to get in there and seize them up if you don't bleed the brakes before compressing the caliper piston. You may be able to clean it out enough just by bleeding and cycling the caliper. That worked for me to get me home once, but I replaced the caliper anyway to be safe.

Edit: But if you haven't replaced the soft lines I agree that's a great place to look/item to replace. Just wanted to share what my experience was when this happened to me.
 

Irun

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If it was a few years ago that you replaced everything, it might be a good Idea to pull the claipers and check them. Also check the rubber boots for brake grease and the sliders, to make sure something isn't hanging up there. Most situations I've seen like this are either a result of a caliper malfunction or the pads not smoothly moving on the sliders. FWIW, I've had to pull mine multiple times after wheeling trips, due to a sticking caliper or pads. The east coast mud tends to wreak havoc on the braking system.
 
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Artsifrtsi

Artsifrtsi

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I'll be working on/diagnosing them this weekend, mainly wanted feedback on lines to get... whether to get longer/performance lines knowing what changes will be made later this year.

The issue that there is no drag at all when they are cold is leading me to the soft lines. The other thing I forgot to mention, is the brake fluid was darkening to where I was flushing it every couple years. That was mostly solved when I replaced the MC, which was leaking into the booster... there was nearly a pint of fluid in there.

FWIW, the low mileage that is on the brakes, is nearly 100% road use... minus driving around the house a couple times to move equipment too heavy to carry.
 
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Irun

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I'll be working on/diagnosing them this weekend, mainly wanted feedback on lines to get... whether to get longer/performance lines knowing what changes will be made later this year.

The issue that there is no drag at all when they are cold is leading me to the soft lines. The other thing I forgot to mention, is the brake fluid was darkening to where I was flushing it every couple years. That was mostly solved when I replaced the MC, which was leaking into the booster... there was nearly a pint of fluid in there.

FWIW, the low mileage that is on the brakes, is nearly 100% road use... minus driving around the house a couple times to move equipment too heavy to carry.

If you're replacing hoses and need longer lines, there's no substantial benefit to "performance" hoses. Just get a longer version of the stock style. There may be cheaper versions, but I've used these with success. Also, just because it doesn't have the symptoms when cold doesn't mean the caliper still couldn't be an issue. I've had re-built/re-manufactured caplipers fail, showing symptoms when they warm up. That's one of the reasons why I try to buy only new ones now.



I'm not saying you need these, but here are Raybestos Element 3 new calipers, as reference.


 

machoheadgames

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If you're replacing hoses and need longer lines, there's no substantial benefit to "performance" hoses. Just get a longer version of the stock style. There may be cheaper versions, but I've used these with success. Also, just because it doesn't have the symptoms when cold doesn't mean the caliper still couldn't be an issue. I've had re-built/re-manufactured caplipers fail, showing symptoms when they warm up. That's one of the reasons why I try to buy only new ones now.

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I'm not saying you need these, but here are Raybestos Element 3 new calipers, as reference.

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Not only are there no benefits to "performance" hoses, in my experience they are worse than stock or longer stock style lines. Stock or lengthened stock lines are really nice because they have that nicely formed rigid metal line which fits the caliper perfectly and puts the soft hose right where you want it.

"Performance" brake hoses from stainless braid or whatever else, are all soft all the way down and end up flopping about in the wheel well unless you can find a decent way to secure to the frame with loop clamps. They are a big downgrade IMO.

I run 4" extended Raybestos lines from Rockauto for like $10 each and they are top notch. I'll never use anything else as long as those are available.
 
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Artsifrtsi

Artsifrtsi

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Looked everything over today, and the only thing I saw was the fluid is black. The calipers were moving nice and smoothly, slide pins still lubed and clean. The reaction pads were a little rusty, so cleaned and lubed them. Why would the fluid be black?
 

mrblaine

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Drove home last night, and started getting brake burn smell on a couple mile descent, then a pull to the right when coming to a stop. No dragging or pulling for the first 20 minutes or so of driving, but hitting the stop and go at the top of the hill, after warming up fully, it starts dragging. Pulled into driveway (all highway after the traffic for 5 miles), and right front disk was smoking. Just replaced the master cyl, booster, pads/rotors/calipers a few years ago, have maybe 2500 miles on the new parts... rotors still look new. Jeep has 130K miles, and original lines. I'll dig further into it this weekend checking the caliper movement, but I'm fairly certain that it may be the soft lines collapsing internally... could also be the master cyl.

What are the recommendations for new lines? I do plan on a 3-4 inch lift and 33's within the next few months. Is it worth it to go with something like the KLM lines?

Diagnose first. With the side up in the air, turn it to make sure it is still dragging. Open the caliper bleed screw. If it frees up, it is not the caliper. If it does not free up, it is the caliper.

It would be odd for the master to cause this. How can the master make one side drag and stick?
 
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Artsifrtsi

Artsifrtsi

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Diagnose first. With the side up in the air, turn it to make sure it is still dragging. Open the caliper bleed screw. If it frees up, it is not the caliper. If it does not free up, it is the caliper.

It would be odd for the master to cause this. How can the master make one side drag and stick?

Yes, I thought that through after posting. The caliper seems to only lock up when heated up, it was released and operating normally today. I remember reading your post about the reaction rails, they were a little rough, but not gouged or worn… I polished them up and re-lubed since I was there. The only odd thing I saw was the dark fluid… moisture? Or maybe hose degradation?
 
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Artsifrtsi

Artsifrtsi

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@mrblaine, I don’t have BMBs, but still went through your break in procedure. And brakes were balanced, and performed well. Checked brakes right after, and both were comparable on temps. During one brake cycle, had drivers front try to lock up, but there were root bumps in the road, so it bounced an locked but modulated it out to roll.

My brake lockup issue looks to be entirely heat soak issue, and I’m very much leaning to hose swell. The calipers, rotors, and pads all appeared in good condition. Caliper floating pins were still lubed and slid smoothly. Piston bots were still securely in place with no dings or tears, and relatively clean. The reaction rails had a little roughness of rust, but no wear divots, I sanded them smooth and relubed.

The only really concerning issue I found, is the fluid is black. I’ll be flushing the fluid again, last time I did was 2017… would the hoses cause that? I also am putting new hoses in before I do the flush.

Do you sell brake lines? I did not see any on website…. Would there be any harm running extended lines, with my plans of lifting in a few months?
 

mrblaine

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@mrblaine, I don’t have BMBs, but still went through your break in procedure. And brakes were balanced, and performed well. Checked brakes right after, and both were comparable on temps. During one brake cycle, had drivers front try to lock up, but there were root bumps in the road, so it bounced an locked but modulated it out to roll.

My brake lockup issue looks to be entirely heat soak issue, and I’m very much leaning to hose swell. The calipers, rotors, and pads all appeared in good condition. Caliper floating pins were still lubed and slid smoothly. Piston bots were still securely in place with no dings or tears, and relatively clean. The reaction rails had a little roughness of rust, but no wear divots, I sanded them smooth and relubed.

The only really concerning issue I found, is the fluid is black. I’ll be flushing the fluid again, last time I did was 2017… would the hoses cause that? I also am putting new hoses in before I do the flush.

Do you sell brake lines? I did not see any on website…. Would there be any harm running extended lines, with my plans of lifting in a few months?

Pick your line length after the lift. Also why I don't sell them. I don't have room to stock even the most common variables.
 
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Mobusaki

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Do you sell brake lines? I did not see any on website…. Would there be any harm running extended lines, with my plans of lifting in a few months?

The stock length lines should be fine (that's what I have on a 3.5" lift) if you keep them. If you're going to replace them I would think the extended length would be fine even before the lift.
 

BlueC

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My brake lockup issue looks to be entirely heat soak issue, and I’m very much leaning to hose swell. The calipers, rotors, and pads all appeared in good condition. Caliper floating pins were still lubed and slid smoothly. Piston bots were still securely in place with no dings or tears, and relatively clean. The reaction rails had a little roughness of rust, but no wear divots, I sanded them smooth and relubed.

I had near identical issues last year. My right front wanted to start clamping/lock up after a few miles. I knew the fluid had not been contaminated with DOT5, which I've had experience with and will produce similar symptoms, so I suspected the old calipers. After replacing the calipers/bracket/pads/rotor I still had the heat-soak-locking issue, so I replaced the soft lines and that solved my issue.
 
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mrblaine

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The stock length lines should be fine (that's what I have on a 3.5" lift) if you keep them. If you're going to replace them I would think the extended length would be fine even before the lift.

You haven't spent much time trying to figure out a way to keep the excess brake hose out of the shock or off of a spinning tire.
 
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Artsifrtsi

Artsifrtsi

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You haven't spent much time trying to figure out a way to keep the excess brake hose out of the shock or off of a spinning tire.

That was my concern, bungee cords didn’t seem to fit the theme of the Jeep… I have a stock set of hoses ordered, and will flush the system, install new lines, flush again, and then bleed it out Next weekend.
 
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Artsifrtsi

Artsifrtsi

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The 1 hour job took 3… first, after 17 years of the ugga dugga tire morons, the lug nut key disintegrated on me, forcing a trip to get a removal tool and new lugs. Next, the wrong rear line came, so that needs to be returned, and correct line bought. I flushed the system until clean fluid came out, replaced the front lines, and then flushed again. Finally when all nice new fluid was the only thing coming out, bled out any remaining bubbles. Took for a drive, and all good so far… we’ll see when I heat up the brakes in traffic again, but am certain the lined were the cause of front locking up.

it took a full quart of fluid to get the fluid to come out clean, it looked like black coffee, even diluted it is still dark…

B1241A8D-1DBF-4CA3-8B2E-DA26A59813CA.png
 
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Artsifrtsi

Artsifrtsi

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So far so good. Still haven’t hit much traffic to het them up, but still no issues. I know they are specially written for his BMBs, but @mrblaine has a very good procedure for breaking in/bedding in brakes, and it works well.
 
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mrblaine

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So far so good. Still haven’t hit much traffic to het them up, but still no issues. I know they are specially written for his BMBs, but @mrblaine has a very good procedure for breaking in/bedding in brakes, and it works well.

If you use my instructions for a set of EBC yellow, blue, green or reds, when you get done you can take them off and put them in the trash because they won't come back to good.
 
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Artsifrtsi

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Nope, just standard for me. But yes, I see your point, those have different break in, because of the coating. But your procedure should work once they are broken in, should the need arise?