Newbie needing advice on how to tackle rust

[Wrangler91899]

You have a long road ahead, but I don't think its hopeless. No one can say for sure how bad it is, just looking at a few pictures on the internet (@Chris, @S.McArthur and @jodomcfrodo ). That isn't really helpful to the OP anyway. He asked how to fix it. Its up to him to decide if He wants to make the investment. I see a LOT of Flaking rust, but I don't see any ugly cracks. That is a good thing. Take a look at my build thread (link in my signature) and you'll see that I wasn't that far off where you are when I started. I've knocked the rust off most things, but will need a tub replacement in the future. My frame is solid, except for one area near the rear bumper.

First things first though. Don't worry about appearance right now. Its important to figure out how bad the frame REALLY is. Get a Borescope. The ones that connect to your smartphone are pretty cool. I think they are a few bucks on Amazon. The areas you want to focus on are near between the lower control arm mounting points, where the skid mounts to the frame. This can give you an idea of what the inside looks like. It should be smooth.

Also, take a ball peen hammer and tap on the frame along the bottom. Solid steel will ring, kinda like a bell. Rusty steel where it has started to delaminate will sound more like a thud. The sound won't ring though the frame like it would if it were solid.

Once you know if its a solid base or not, then you can start planning how to mitigate the rust. I can't imagine paying someone to replace a frame...though people do. That is an option. You can also knock the rust off and repaint it. I use a needle descaler. Works WONDERFULL! For heavy, crusty rust like you have, its really the only option (short of bashing it with a hammer). A grinder isn't really going to do it. Then, just take your time. Work in small sections, and go from front to back, side to side. You're going to spend a bunch of money on fasteners, paint, brushes, cleaning supplies; Get frustrated dealing with bolts that want to break or are seized; and ask yourself why in the F*** am I doing this. BUT...at the end, you'll have something very nice. Only you can answer if its worth it though.

I agree... It will be a long road ahead if I decide to try to fix this. I'm not sure if I can but if there is some hope (as in NOT finding frame rot behind the skid plate ) I'll just take it a little at a time. The advantage I have is that it is not my main driver so I can let it sit until I get around to working on the next thing.

Borescope will be here by mid week and we will see what the inside looks like. I'm going to expect that it ISN'T smooth on the inside. (expect the worst and anything else is good news ha!)

I did the ball peen test and will post the video further in the thread. Feel free to give your take on it.

I had planned on using a needle descaler. I have seen one used in a jeep video and it did pretty good. The next option would be the wire brush type attachment. I know that probably wouldn't get it all though.

Thanks for the general overview of how to work through it all. That's the kind of info I was hoping to receive. Someone who has done a restoration of a rusty frame and can share information they learned, which it sounds like you are talking from experience... ha

 

[Shandara]

There is holes in the frame at several points that allow dirt, mud, debris, water and salt into the frame . All of that settles to lowest points and shows up just in front of the rear bumper and between the rises at the front and the back by your axles. Because the skid plate traps moisture salt etc between it and the frame it is prone to rusting from both sides. It will be the bottom half of the frame in these areas that get the worst of it and why the safety caps are designed the way they are to repair these areas. You should be able to find a descent frame under the $1500 range. And it is not always necessary to travel to find a solid Jeep. The area where you are is more prone to the problem than the SW but there are plenty of these that served time as run around vehicles being towed behind motor homes that have not been driven in the snow and salt. They may bring a higher dollar in your area so would need to weight that against the cost involved in going else where to aquire a solid vehicle. My frame is solid there is some minor pitting on a few parts and some surface rust which I'll deal with but I bought I locally for 3K CAD so about 2100USD and I'm more than comfortable dealing with what it needs done. I have never dealt with safety caps myself and there maybe some issues with mounting lifts or accessories afterwards that I am not aware of. I have seen a TJ done with them and it would not scare me off of using them if I needed to but I also own a welder I am not scared to use it. If did end up with safety caps I am quite sure I could adjust anything that they affected and make it work weather that's an option for you is something you will need to decide. Do you have the tools or access to them and are you willing to do that kind of work. Keep in mind that you will want to source a clean frame and price it against that work if it's needed to make the correct choice . Why buy all the safety caps and put in the labour and materials in if it will cost more than doing the frame swap. If neither option works for you then it is down to parting it out or selling it whole to someone that will do the work or needs most of the Jeep. Either way I'll keep a watch on how it goes and best of luck to you.

 

[Mike_H]

I agree... It will be a long road ahead if I decide to try to fix this. I'm not sure if I can but if there is some hope (as in NOT finding frame rot behind the skid plate ) I'll just take it a little at a time. The advantage I have is that it is not my main driver so I can let it sit until I get around to working on the next thing.

Borescope will be here by mid week and we will see what the inside looks like. I'm going to expect that it ISN'T smooth on the inside. (expect the worst and anything else is good news ha!)

I did the ball peen test and will post the video further in the thread. Feel free to give your take on it.

I had planned on using a needle descaler. I have seen one used in a jeep video and it did pretty good. The next option would be the wire brush type attachment. I know that probably wouldn't get it all though.

Thanks for the general overview of how to work through it all. That's the kind of info I was hoping to receive. Someone who has done a restoration of a rusty frame and can share information they learned, which it sounds like you are talking from experience... ha

Lots of Experience. Been in Michigan my whole life. My daily drivers are always newer vehicles, because I just don't have the patience to work on something rusty that I need to rely on. I did that for years...MANY 2 am nights because something went wrong and a brake line broke or I broke or stripped a bolt that would need to be replaced and I needed that car in the morning to get to work.

With the Jeep, its a Toy, so I can take my time and walk away when I get Frustrated. I don't need it everyday for work, so Its a lot easier to deal with, though it still tests my patience from time to time.

 

[toximus]

This is what my Jeep looked like before I spent hundreds of hours building a new frame for it:

That might be an indication of the condition of your frame.

 

[jodomcfrodo]

X2 to what Toximus said above. Even frames with little to no rust on the outside can have a devastating amount of rust on the inside. So the fact that you have so much rust on the outside is not a good sign.


Here is my old frame, which was replaced due to internal rust. Notice how there is very little external rust at all. All the brown you see is mud.

Even with so little external rust, the inside of my frame was terrible.

Just remember when you are checking the frame that the inside is what matters. TJ frames do not rust through from the outside. You have to see what the internal condition of the frame is before you move forward. My intuition is that the inside of your frame is going to very bad. That being said, on some frames the outside can be bad while the inside is fine, but that is very unlikely.

 

[toximus]

To clean out a frame after wheeling (get dirt out) or winter salt I have had good luck with a jetter for my pressure washer. It self feeds down the length of the frame and you can add soap into the stream.

 

[billiebob]

A very tired, poorly maintained TJ, driven into the ground. BUT rust wise, most looks to be surface rust and flaking paint.

What I see is a need for new shocks and bushings thru out the suspension and new u-
joints everywhere if you want it to be a reliable off roader. Fixing the rust properly would require removing the body, dismantling, blasting, priming, painting. Anything less will be purely cosmetic and only half the job.

 

[Stockli]

If those people from the dealership are "friends", they royally screwed you. Hope you didn't pay much for that thing, it's a POS. You are going to dump way too much money/time/effort into trying to fix it.

That frame rust looks like bad news bears to me.

 

[Wrangler91899]

Ok guys, I was out of pocket for the weekend and could get to all your replies...

Thanks for the information provided both positive and negative as it is much as I expected...

You ask 20 people a question and you can get 20 different answers.

On 1 side we have the doom & gloomers who say it's a piece of junk. On the other side you have those that don't see a problem that can't be fixed. I suspect it is somewhere within the middle of these two.

I will have a borescope by the middle to end of this week and once in hand I will give it a try and see if I can get a visual on what is on the inside.

I will also be removing the skid plate to see what is behind that. Once it's off I will post pictures so you can see it as well. Even if they are the scariest Jeep pictures you'll ever see... ha

I did do the ball a peen hammer test and here is a link to the video so you can hear it too:

In person, there was a ring on all 4 positions. When I listened to it on my phone I couldn't hear the ring too much. However while I was making this little video I could hear the ring since I had headphones on. After listening to this like 20 or 30 times now, I think the back on both sides has less of a ring which is in line with what some of you have mentioned about the rust being worse near the back.

So, that's where it stands right now until I get the borescope in and take the skid plate off.

Thanks for any information you all provide.

 

[Shandara]

The hammer test you really want to start at one end and work your way to the opposite end hitting every couple of inches and listen for a change in tone. At the skid plate hit it about a 1/2" from the bottom along the side of the frame also check the sides just in front of the rear bumper and around the control arm brackets both inside and out while you are there. BTW the vid link in your thread is not working for me just says the video is not available.

 

[Wrangler91899]

The hammer test you really want to start at one end and work your way to the opposite end hitting every couple of inches and listen for a change in tone. At the skid plate hit it about a 1/2" from the bottom along the side of the frame also check the sides just in front of the rear bumper and around the control arm brackets both inside and out while you are there. BTW the vid link in your thread is not working for me just says the video is not available.

Ah ok really... I didn't do that. Maybe I can redo it tomorrow. It's dark and cold... ha

I think I fixed the video not showing

 

[JEEPCJTJ]

Two things you got to know before messing with the skid plate.

First, it is not only a skid plate, it is also the "cross member" that holds your transfer case/ transmission (and engine to some degree) in place.

Second, the Nutserts that the bolts screw into are held in place by the frame itself and just a little too much rust will cause them to spin with the bolts instead of allowing them to unscrew. Way too much rust will not only let them spin but also let them "fall through" the frame. Either of these happening can become a "call the scrapyard" moment to some or a "well here's more to fix" moment for others.

I'm just letting you know so you don't end up needing a chain wrapped around your whole Jeep to hold the stuff in place enough to drive it into your garage or onto a trailer.

 

[DetroitTJ]

Maybe I’ve missed it somewhere, but what is the body like? I bought a rusty Jeep here in Michigan a year ago. I think in the mid-west we’re more used to seeing rust on vehicles. I see rusty Jeeps driving around every day. Now I wish I had gone down south to find a Jeep, but I guess we’ve both learned a lesson. The body rust including the floor pans and the area around the roll cage mount behind the seats were an issue for me and required many hours to repair/replace.

If the body is solid then replacing portions of the frame (such as the center section with the skid plate nutserts) is possible with the help of parts from SafeTCap - you’ll need to make friends with a welder. There are options to treat the surface rust with POR15 or Rustoleum.

You can decide what this Jeep means to you. For me I’m trying to build a Jeep that my son and I can enjoy for 20 years in Michigan. So my old frame just wasn’t good enough and I bought a like-new 2005 frame on EBay for $1250.

My frame:

 

[Chris]

5) Well, I guess my original plan may not work then. A question here though, in your original comment you talked about the frame costing $6000 but here in #5 you said $1000 - $1500. Did the $6000 include labor etc...?

The $1000 to $1500 was the cost of a rust free frame. The extra cost was the labor of having a shop do the work to swap in the new frame. As I'm sure you can imagine it's A LOT of labor, and by no means a small task. In fact, it's probably one of the biggest projects you could do.

Those figures are coming from a recent frame swap that @jodomcfrodo had done on his (which was also rusted out). Of course prices can vary, but that's probably just a good number to ballpark at.

7) If I go the route of selling and buying a new one I for sure will buy one from south or west and NOT from ohio... I suppose if I found one that had been garage kept and treated underneath from the get go, that would be a different story but I'm guessing those are few and far between...

Good idea! There are of course rust free TJs in the mid-west and east coast. The issue is that they are just further and farther between. Out here on the west coast and in the southwest, almost all of them are rust free as long as they've lived here their hole life. We don't salt the roads out here (and we don't really have harsh winters), which is probably the main reason for this.

 

[jwrangler187]

Do not pull the skid plate off what ever you do. 90% of us salt state jeeps never are able to get them back on. Just drive it and enjoy it yes the frame has some extensive rust. But you can still drive it and enjoy your jeep. Best of luck sir

 

[jodomcfrodo]

Do not pull the skid plate off what ever you do. 90% of us salt state jeeps never are able to get them back on. Just drive it and enjoy it yes the frame has some extensive rust. But you can still drive it and enjoy your jeep. Best of luck sir

Maybe it is just me, but I don't think I could enjoy my Jeep not knowing if my transfer case and transmission were about to fall out every time I hit a bump in the road.

 

[bromel]

When you feel around inside those frame holes, is there loose crap floating around? That's usually the best indicator of how you're doing inside the frame short of using a borescope. As other have said, your frame is probably no bueno. SafeTCaps can save it for a while, but not worth it if the tub is rusting out. The rust on the suspension parts is mostly superficial despite the horrible appearance. A wire wheel can get rid of a lot of that.

If you can do all the work yourself... then I say go for it. But I wouldn't dump more than a grand or so into that.

 

[ZEN357]

Undercoating is your friend!!!!!

 

[Mike_H]

Undercoating is your friend!!!!!

no..Its really not. That thick rubbery stuff is not water permeable. So, what happens is that you'll get a pinhole, then moisture will get behind the undercoating and start rusting the steel below. You won't see it happening until the undercoating fails...but since its rubbery, it hangs on to itself pretty well. Buy the time the undercoating starts sluffing off, you are a long ways down the road of a rusty frame.

 

[Jed57]

Wrangler91899: I’m not a mechanic, nor do I play one on TV. All I know is my personal experience. When I bought my Jeep I set a budget for the vehicle and for work it needed initially. Not that I’m so good with money, I’m not. It’s that I don’t have any! I can’t forsee what it will need in the future, and that’s not part of budget. The idea was to end up with a #1 safe as possible vehicle- as my daughters drive it too, and #2 as dependable as possible. We’ve all seen newer, more expensive vehicles have problems, so there are no 100% dependable vehicles. Can only try. Sounds like Yoda. Stick to your budget as best as you can, and monitor it. As far as the frame, what I learned in doing Safety cap rails on mine, is that the upper half of the frame is what matters and the lower half of the frame is what - usually - rusts out. You need to get the full picture, and look at, tap on, etc. from front to back down both sides, top to bottom and all down the inside of the rails, including the trailing arms. If you have half or more of good frame top to bottom you can probably do the Safety caps. There needs to be enough to weld to, and it has to be cleaned and ground down to shiny metal to take weld. The lower portion of the frame is cut away, as in the pic below. The Caps come with nutserts to put the plate back on. Has to all be measured and welded precisely or you’re screwed. I was blessed to find a welder who was a fan of Jeeps and let me do much of the prep work. I paid about $700 for the rails, and $1200 to have them welded on. I’m a bit over budget but it was a good guide, and I love this thing. I have a ‘14 Silverado that rides like a Caddy and I drive the Jeep more. There is nothing but good advice on this forum, everyone is great, but these are all opinions, including mine. Would I do this again? Nope! But I’m glad I did it this time. I wish you luck.