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No gas

Apparition

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IMHO the real reason for high prices in the oil industry is Zealot Environmentalists and NIMBYs. The last construction of an oil refinery of any meaningful capacity was in 1977. The most economical way to transport crude oil and finished product is a pipeline. Try to build one today and see what happens. In North Dakota they flare off billions of cubic feet of natural gas because they can not build the pipelines to move it to processing and then distributing it to where it’s needed. Just look at a night time satellite image of western North Dakota. All that light is from flaring gas and not streetlights.
Wait, you say let’s go all electric. Same issue with Zealot Environmentalists and NIMBYs. The added amount of electricity required means building more generation od all types and transmission capacity. This means more environmental hurdles for construction of generators of all types, high voltage transmission lines, more mining of copper and other raw materials. Electricity is not clean. Getting the infrastructure manufactured requires a lot of environmental pollution as well. Lithium needs to be mined and processed for batteries and then there is the issue of disposing them after their useful life.
This is a multi faceted issue and not entirely the fault of the oil industry who are just following the Capitalist System of supply and demand. A few people not buying gas for few days will do noting to them or there bottom line because those people will just buy gas latter on.

Transmission of electricity can be a challenge. The giant wind and solar farms get placed about as far from where the electricity is consumed as you can get.
 

pc1p

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IMHO the real reason for high prices in the oil industry is Zealot Environmentalists and NIMBYs. The last construction of an oil refinery of any meaningful capacity was in 1977. The most economical way to transport crude oil and finished product is a pipeline. Try to build one today and see what happens. In North Dakota they flare off billions of cubic feet of natural gas because they can not build the pipelines to move it to processing and then distributing it to where it’s needed. Just look at a night time satellite image of western North Dakota. All that light is from flaring gas and not streetlights.
Wait, you say let’s go all electric. Same issue with Zealot Environmentalists and NIMBYs. The added amount of electricity required means building more generation od all types and transmission capacity. This means more environmental hurdles for construction of generators of all types, high voltage transmission lines, more mining of copper and other raw materials. Electricity is not clean. Getting the infrastructure manufactured requires a lot of environmental pollution as well. Lithium needs to be mined and processed for batteries and then there is the issue of disposing them after their useful life.
This is a multi faceted issue and not entirely the fault of the oil industry who are just following the Capitalist System of supply and demand. A few people not buying gas for few days will do noting to them or there bottom line because those people will just buy gas latter on.

ND has plenty of pipeline capacity and they amount of gas they sent to flare is literally at historic lows...
ND Flare.JPG


There's a lot to running a pipeline, in particular a natural gas pipeline - NGLs, fractional considerations, pipeline pressures, liquefaction requirements (if needed), etc. As someone who works for a company with various industrial gas pipelines, including a large NG pipeline - and as someone responsible for environmental compliance - I can say undoubtedly that "zealot environmentalists" are rarely (if ever) the issue and it is always a matter of economics.
 

Tray Burge

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small movement to make a meager attempt at stickin it to the fuel co's that are stickin it to us right now.


if you can avoid it................... no fuel from 6/3-6/5.


personally as of late i refuse to support any fuel station stores for anything except the fuel needed for getting to work.

Uh, it's not only the oil companies Jefferybomb, I mean someguysjeep? lol
I remember a time we were energy independent for the first time in 50 years not just 2 years ago, hum?
 

Tray Burge

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now i'm so GD sorry i ever said a MTHFKN word about this and please feel free to delete this cause i want no part of a political debate.

gas is killin me, like i'm sure it's killin y'all. i saw a silly post about a notion to make a statement and passed it along nothing more. i apologize and it'll nevr FKN happen again.

?
 

Offline246

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Specifically, regarding current high price of gas, pls read the link in post 11.

"""Even with oil prices surging, oil executives and financial analysts don’t see the industry’s calculus changing any time soon: “Whether it’s $150 oil, $200 oil, or $100 oil, we’re not going to change our growth plans,’’ Scott Sheffield, CEO of Texas-based Pioneer Natural Resources, told an interviewer last month."""

The new oil company financial model is to focus on significantly higher profits, regardless of what the price of oil is. Time to buy oil stocks??
 
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pc1p

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Look at how long it’s taken California to try and build a desalination plant in the Los Angeles County area. It’s been over 20 years of trying to get it approved and they still won’t approve it even when faced with severe droughts. They’d just as soon make people die of dehydration before they imposed an inch on the environment.

You're probably talking about the Poseidon/Huntington Beach proposed plant. IMO, rejecting that proposal is one of the smarter moves by the CCC. Desalination plants are notoriously expensive, energy intensive, and environmentally damaging. I think the last proposal at the Huntington Beach project was ~$1.5B. Water recycling has proven much cheaper, efficient and environmentally friendly when this option exists. Considering the high environmental sensitivity of this area, it was a smart move.
 

Chris

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You're probably talking about the Poseidon/Huntington Beach proposed plant. IMO, rejecting that proposal is one of the smarter moves by the CCC. Desalination plants are notoriously expensive, energy intensive, and environmentally damaging. I think the last proposal at the Huntington Beach project was ~$1.5B. Water recycling has proven much cheaper, efficient and environmentally friendly when this option exists. Considering the high environmental sensitivity of this area, it was a smart move.

I’m not sure. Israel has been doing desalination for a while now with great success from what I’ve read.

I’m also not sure how California can continue to recycle water when they are running out of water with each passing day (or so it seems).
 

mrblaine

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I’m not sure. Israel has been doing desalination for a while now with great success from what I’ve read.

I’m also not sure how California can continue to recycle water when they are running out of water with each passing day (or so it seems).

There are lots of desal plants in use. That doesn't change the challenges.
 
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sab

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Water recycling has proven much cheaper, efficient and environmentally friendly when this option exists.

How so? Full-scale water recycling is not simple, nor economical, and is no more financially or technically possible than desalination technology. My current engineering career involves overseeing the design of public water and wastewater infrastructure, so I've had strategic discussions on the subject. There are two approaches for the end use of the treated effluent: 1) using current treatment plant effluent in new pipelines for irrigation (called "purple pipelines" because purple PVC pipe is used to distinguish non-potable from potable water), and 2) tightening up treatment standards so that effluent is potable. The infrastructure costs for either of these options is tremendous. Certainly within the same order of magnitude as desalination technology. In fact, option 2 above uses similar membrane filter technology as desalination technology.
 

sab

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What is the major issue with solar evaporation? Or why don't we use it large scale?

I'm not sure I know the answer to this, as it's never been discussed in my circles, but if I had to guess, I'd say the space required is the main concern. It takes a lot of area, and you either do it far away from the population and put in expensive, long and large diameter pipelines to get it to the population, or you buy land at very high prices. The area also comes into play when it comes time to collect the evaporated water, I'd suppose.
 
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someguysjeep

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Maybe we are to deep to rework all the infrastructure and smaller localized devices are a better option. Could certainly limit the amount of people affected by down time.
 
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pc1p

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How so? Full-scale water recycling is not simple, nor economical, and is no more financially or technically possible than desalination technology. My current engineering career involves overseeing the design of public water and wastewater infrastructure, so I've had strategic discussions on the subject. There are two approaches for the end use of the treated effluent: 1) using current treatment plant effluent in new pipelines for irrigation (called "purple pipelines" because purple PVC pipe is used to distinguish non-potable from potable water), and 2) tightening up treatment standards so that effluent is potable. The infrastructure costs for either of these options is tremendous. Certainly within the same order of magnitude as desalination technology. In fact, option 2 above uses similar membrane filter technology as desalination technology.

Large scale (what perhaps you mean by "full-scale" above) reuse system have challenges for sure, but that's part of the issue. We don't necessarily need large-scale systems for predominantly residential or small commercial areas when we are talking about reuse systems (unlike desalination system which tend to be larger for favorable economics). Smaller community/neighborhood based systems are economically, logistically, and technically advantageous over large-scale desalination (which are geographically limited not only due to water, but also proximity to areas with electrical capacity).

It's been a while since I was involved in any project like this (I was involved in project to generate water supply for a proposed facility with higher water demands than could be supplied by local municipality) had brackish desalination ~2.2-2.5x the cost per cubic meter for Class A reclaimed water, mainly due to energy and cost of maintenance. I don't remember what the numbers were for full seawater desalination, but I remember it being notably higher than brackish desalination (though that # I would be guessing at since it's been a while, and since I'm sure there has been some technological changes).

It's worthwhile to note that reuse doesn't necessarily need to result in potable water. The heaviest water users in most areas, particularly in SoCal, are industrial in nature. Residential water users in LA are probably ~10% of the water usage sector. Class A can be used for food crop, landscaping, process water, environmental restoration, etc.
 

pc1p

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I’m not sure. Israel has been doing desalination for a while now with great success from what I’ve read.

I’m also not sure how California can continue to recycle water when they are running out of water with each passing day (or so it seems).

The Israel desalination has been a good success but it's also important to note that it wasn't the only fix - they capture almost 90% of the water that goes down their drains for irrigation and other uses.

https://www.npr.org/sections/parall...-on-recycled-water-to-meet-its-growing-thirst

Israel (as well as Jordan, with whom they've partnered on this) also has much lower environmental concerns for brine discharge. I recall a story from many years ago about Israel, Jordan, and Palestine having a JV about pumping the brine up to the Dead Sea to replenish (talk about a great place to drop brine!!!), but don't know if that ever came online or not.
 

Apparition

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Since this is now a somewhat energy thread.

https://www.owensborotimes.com/news...ailing-hawesville-operations-for-9-12-months/

In order to continue to operate its smelter located at 1627 State Route 3543, Hawesville, Kentucky (the "Hawesville Smelter"), Century Aluminum of Kentucky GP ("Century" or the "Company") must be able to purchase reliable, affordable electric power. Unfortunately, an unprecedented rise in global energy prices arising from the Russian war in Ukraine has dramatically increased the price of energy in the U.S. and around the globe. The cost required to run our Hawesville, KY, facility has more than tripled the historical average in a very short period. Given these circumstances it is necessary to fully curtail operations for a period of approximately nine to twelve months at Hawesville until energy prices return to more normalized levels. This is expected to result in the layoff of 628 Hawesville Smelter employees, including 504 employees represented by the United Steel, Paper and Forestry, Rubber, Manufacturing, Energy, Allied Industrial Service Workers Union, AFL-CIO(*USW").

Century is one of just a handful of aluminum smelters left in the United States and the only high-purity smelter in the world. Hawesville is Century's largest U.S. smelter and is the largest producer of high-purity primary aluminum in North America. Four of Hawesville's five potlines are capable of producing high-purity aluminum, which supports the United States' national security efforts and is used in defense applications such as the F16, Airbus, Naval war vessels, 747 airplanes and the International Space Station.
 
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B00mb00m

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Colorado is "increasing taxes" by charging a delivery fee of $0.27 for every package starting on July 1st. So every Amazon box, Jeep part box, etc.

Whoa, that's going to net some $$$ for the state.
 

sab

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Since this is now a somewhat energy thread.

https://www.owensborotimes.com/news...ailing-hawesville-operations-for-9-12-months/

In order to continue to operate its smelter located at 1627 State Route 3543, Hawesville, Kentucky (the "Hawesville Smelter"), Century Aluminum of Kentucky GP ("Century" or the "Company") must be able to purchase reliable, affordable electric power. Unfortunately, an unprecedented rise in global energy prices arising from the Russian war in Ukraine has dramatically increased the price of energy in the U.S. and around the globe. The cost required to run our Hawesville, KY, facility has more than tripled the historical average in a very short period. Given these circumstances it is necessary to fully curtail operations for a period of approximately nine to twelve months at Hawesville until energy prices return to more normalized levels. This is expected to result in the layoff of 628 Hawesville Smelter employees, including 504 employees represented by the United Steel, Paper and Forestry, Rubber, Manufacturing, Energy, Allied Industrial Service Workers Union, AFL-CIO(*USW").

Century is one of just a handful of aluminum smelters left in the United States and the only high-purity smelter in the world. Hawesville is Century's largest U.S. smelter and is the largest producer of high-purity primary aluminum in North America. Four of Hawesville's five potlines are capable of producing high-purity aluminum, which supports the United States' national security efforts and is used in defense applications such as the F16, Airbus, Naval war vessels, 747 airplanes and the International Space Station.

That's what you call an unintended consequence of all this green-energy policy. I bet Mr. President didn't consider for a moment that I have had some aluminum items with national security implications on backorder (Jeep parts from Savvy) since the first week of February. Now I wonder if I'll ever see the rest of my Savvy order. :unsure: