Pierce winches

[StG58]

I'm not sure either. I didn't bother remote mounting my last winch's solenoid box as I didn't see any reason to.

Conditions up here are a little different, with water intrusion being a huge issue. I'm pretty sure I can't afford to purchase a marine grade winch even if I could find one. I have a hard enough time keeping moss from growing on my TJ, and it gets driven daily. I gave up on the Suburban and the house.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Warn's and most good quality winch solenoids are sealed/encapsulated so water intrusion is not an issue. In fact, even non-waterproof winches will work fine when fully submerged in fresh water. They'd only have a problem in salt water.

 

[StG58]

Warn's and most good quality winch solenoids are sealed/encapsulated so water intrusion is not an issue. In fact, even non-waterproof winches will work fine when fully submerged in fresh water. They'd only have a problem in salt water.

Very true. You can run a winch under water (fresh water), in fact. There is a time component to water resistance. Expose anything, even marine grade, water proof enclosures to ambient moisture for long enough and the moisture will get in. It's just a fact of life around here that eventually electrical stuff will corrode to some extent.

 

[Rob5589]

Thanks guys. Don't see any major water crossings and will keep it covered when not in use.

 

[Kyle_W]

It gets the solenoid out of the weather and mounts it up a little higher so it doesn't get submerged on deep water crossings. There's also advantages for security where malicious people can't mess with your winch as easily. It's getting the solenoid out of the weather for me. Wet snow and constant rain 9 months out of the year can take it's toll. The Warn's seem to hold up pretty well, but I've seen and heard of other winches with lesser solenoid packages failing from corrosion around here. Seen the insides of a Warn where the corrosion was pretty extensive too, but it was still running OK. Oh, that goes for the Engo's as well. Check the tightness of the fasteners holding it togather, and look at the sealing on the motor and gear box. There has been reports of issues with that, with new winches. Engo's good at fixing / replacing the failed parts, but the solenoid warrenty is only one year, and the old solenoid box's were pretty flimsy.

I'm really torn on the whole "Made in China" thing. This is from first hand experience too.

I work for a company that makes high end medical equipment. Our stuff is the most expensive and most innovative equipment out there, buy a wide margin. We sell world wide. The quandary came when we tried to expand into China, India, South America and other areas where the economy wouldn't support our pricing. We moved production of a simpler, and less expensive line to China. Opened up a subsidiary there. It took us about three years to get the quality and customer service up to standards, and during that time we didn't sell a thing out of that facility. Lots of trips to China by our engineers and customer support folks. We ended up sending selected senior production people over there to actually show them how to build our product to our standards. Lots of time and effort involved, but it's starting to pay off now. Most of the raw components are still manufactured in our facility here, and shipped to China.

I get split between USA made VS Imported all the time.

I've came to the conclusion that if I can't afford an American made item, then all I care about is that I get a quality item; my Browning 30.06 was made in Japan, and it's a beautiful rifle with no flaws in quality.

If what you want is foreign made, but you can tell it's a quality item with thorough engineering, then in my opinion that's just as good as an American made item.

 

[StG58]

Thanks guys. Don't see any major water crossings and will keep it covered when not in use.

I'm sure you'll be just fine. There's a lot of winches around here that have never seen a cover and operate under worse conditions than we'll ever subject our gear to. They live awhile.

I get split between USA made VS Imported all the time.

I've came to the conclusion that if I can't afford an American made item, then all I care about is that I get a quality item; my Browning 30.06 was made in Japan, and it's a beautiful rifle with no flaws in quality.

If what you want is foreign made, but you can tell it's a quality item with thorough engineering, then in my opinion that's just as good as an American made item.

I'm kind of that way as well. I'd prefer to buy American Made, but that's just not the way the world operates these days. There's a whole litany of reasons that stuff made in the USA can be more expensive than stuff made off shore. We have to arbitrage our higher wages against lower off shore production costs sometimes to get the things we think we want / need.

 

[Kyle_W]

I'm sure you'll be just fine. There's a lot of winches around here that have never seen a cover and operate under worse conditions than we'll ever subject our gear to. They live awhile.

I'm kind of that way as well. I'd prefer to buy American Made, but that's just not the way the world operates these days. There's a whole litany of reasons that stuff made in the USA can be more expensive than stuff made off shore. We have to arbitrage our higher wages against lower off shore production costs sometimes to get the things we think we want / need.

I think the outsourcing of jobs is the work of the devil - however, once your competition (X company) outsources because they are hurting and need to stay afloat, then your Y company is being outsold by them because of their lower prices - so then YOU outsource to stay competitive. And then it goes to the next company, and then the next.

So...I blame the first companies that started to outsource!

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Keep in mind that $$$ flowing offshore is a leak in our economy. We're buying more from overseas than we're exporting and no economy can withstand that forever. My old macro-economics class illustrated that well for me.

I will do my darnedest to buy only American. I'd rather my $$$ be going to an an American worker's family than to a Chinese worker's family.

 

[StG58]

Keep in mind that $$$ flowing offshore is a leak in our economy. We're buying more from overseas than we're exporting and no economy can withstand that forever. My old macro-economics class illustrated that well for me.

I will do my darnedest to buy only American. I'd rather my $$$ be going to an an American worker's family than to a Chinese worker's family.

I can't even begin to argue with that, because it is almost entirely correct. The problem lies with the correlation between wages, production costs, and prices. If I want to modify my TJ using all American made parts, then it's not going to happen. The official inflation rate is south of 3%, my yearly pay increases are just north of 2% and the actual devaluation rate is upwards of 6%. The US corporate tax rate is the highest in the G20. That combination of events makes me broke most of the time, even though I'm frugal. If I could figure out how to manufacture good TJ parts in the US for an affordable price, I'd do it just to fund my habit.

 

[Kyle_W]

Keep in mind that $$$ flowing offshore is a leak in our economy. We're buying more from overseas than we're exporting and no economy can withstand that forever. My old macro-economics class illustrated that well for me.

I will do my darnedest to buy only American. I'd rather my $$$ be going to an an American worker's family than to a Chinese worker's family.

Great point.

One reason why I despise superstores like 4wd.com or quadratec.com - as they sell to the masses of JK owners who either are ignorant (not knowing any better), or just don't care to buy quality USA made items for their Jeeps, they reap in the full profits of selling cheap items that can be sold with a higher margin than compared to more costly to make American items - they go to bed with plenty of money in their pockets, without giving a rats ass about trying to sell more American made products than Chinese made - solely because there not as much money in an operation like that.

That goes for plenty of other industries. Everybody sells out to money. That's all that matters.

 

[Kyle_W]

I was looking at two Warn winches. The first one that caught my eye was the 9.0Rc, billed as Warn's competition winch for Jeeps. The reason that I looked at it was because it was a much more compact unit. Methinks to myself, it's smaller, so it's got to be lighter! (I'll get back to this in a moment) The second is the classic Warn M8000 that is recommended by all and hangs off the front of a lot of the older, more "used" rigs around here.

Here the part that I found very interesting. The Warn 9.0Rc weighs in at only a pound less than the classic M8000, and it has 50' less line on it!
View attachment 12367
9.0Rc SPECS/PART NUMBER
Winch Model: WARN 9.0Rc
Part Number: 71550
Rated Line Pull: 9,000 lbs. (4080 kgs) single-line
Motor: Series Wound, 12V 4.8 hp
Electrical controls: Contactor
Remote Control: Remote switch, 12' (3.7m) lead
Geartrain: 3-Stage Planetary
Gear ratio: 216:1
Clutch (freespooling): Sliding Ring Gear
Brake: Automatic mechanical cone brake
Drum diameter/Length: 2.75 in/4.75 in (7.0cm/12cm)
Weight: 54 lbs. (24.8kgs.)
Rope: 50 ft, 3/8 in (15m, 9.5mm) Spydura[emoji769] synthetic Rope
Fairlead: Matte aluminum Hawse
Recommended Battery: 650 CCA minimum for winching
Battery leads: 2 gauge, 72 in (1.83m)
Finish: Gloss red paint over primer undercoating

View attachment 12368

M8-s SPECS/PART NUMBERS
Winch model: M8-s
Part number: 87800 (currently not CE compliant)
Rated line pull: 8,000 lbs., (3630 kgs.) single-line
Motor: Series Wound, 12V 4.8 hp, 24V 2.1 hp,
Electrical controls: Contactor
Remote Control: Remote switch, 12' (3.7m) lead
Geartrain: 3-Stage Planetary
Gear ratio: 216:1
Clutch (freespooling): Sliding ring gear
Brake: Automatic mechanical cone
Drum diameter/Length: 2.625"/9.0" (6.66cm/23cm)
Weight: 55 lbs. (25 kgs)
Rope: Spydura[emoji769] synthetic — 100', 3/8" diam.
Fairlead: Full radius matte aluminum hawse
Recommended Battery: 650 CCA minimum for winching
Battery leads: 2 gauge, 72" (1.83m)
Finish: Argent gray powder coat

Then here's the M8000 in all it's glory (and weight)
View attachment 12369

M8 SPECS/PART NUMBERS
Winch model: M8
Part number: 26502 (wire rope, 12V)
Part Number: 88502 (wire rope, 12V, CE, International sales only)
Rated line pull: 8,000 lbs., (3630 kgs.) single-line
Motor: Series Wound, 12V 4.8 hp
Electrical controls: Contactor
Remote Control: Remote switch, 12' (3.7m) lead
Gear train: 3-Stage Planetary
Gear ratio: 216:1
Clutch (freespooling): Sliding ring gear
Brake: Automatic mechanical cone
Drum diameter/Length: 2.5"/9.0" (6.4cm/23cm)
Weight: 74 lbs. (34 kgs)
Rope: Steel — 100', 5/16" diam. (30m, 8mm diam.)
Fairlead: Roller
Recommended Battery: 650 CCA minimum for winching
Battery leads: 2 gauge, 72" (1.83m)
Finish: Argent gray powder coat

Plus that red color on the 9.0Rc is just not going to fly.

@Jerry Bransford pointed out in another thread that getting the M8000 with the steel cable and then swapping it out for synthetic is not a bad option for saving a little money. Walking around the parking lot last night, I'm sure that I could pawn a new Warn cable off on someone at work and recoup a little cash towards a synthetic line.

This winch mounting plate is intriguing, from Under Cover Fabworks
View attachment 12370

It weighs in at 8 pounds.

I was looking at that winch plate yesterday...me want.

 

[mrblaine]

Great point.

One reason why I despise superstores like 4wd.com or quadratec.com - as they sell to the masses of JK owners who either are ignorant (not knowing any better), or just don't care to buy quality USA made items for their Jeeps, they reap in the full profits of selling cheap items that can be sold with a higher margin than compared to more costly to make American items - they go to bed with plenty of money in their pockets, without giving a rats ass about trying to sell more American made products than Chinese made - solely because there not as much money in an operation like that.

That goes for plenty of other industries. Everybody sells out to money. That's all that matters.

Like most things, you need to dig further into the root cause. Walmart, Harbor Freight, 4 Wheel Parts, etc. wouldn't be able to sell as much as they do if the demand for cheaper crap that looks similar to the good stuff wasn't as high as it is.

The mantra of US consumers isn't "I paid more than you did", it is "I paid less than you did and I got the same thing". See, it has a motor, a drum to wind in the line, a place to plug in the controller, it's black, and it bolts to my front bumper. Must be the same, right?

I also think you're a tiny bit confused on the margins on this stuff and why they sell it. A lot of my brake parts are made overseas. I have a dealer account with the company. My margins are the same between the very high quality premium versions and the low quality economy versions. The other companies I chat with report that they make far less on the economy stuff than they do on the premium stuff.

The only reason they sell it is because when Joe Soccer Pop drops off the minivan to get brakes put on it, he never ever tells them to spare no expense to get his brakes working. The shop isn't going to demand the premium product, they get the economy stuff and they bounce that price between two or three different warehouses to get a better price which dilutes the margin further.

Cheap crap isn't the fault of the companies that sell it, it is the fault of the consumer who demands a lower price.

Another thing you might take into consideration is 4 Wheel Parts, 4 Wheel Drive Hardware, Quadratec, etc. were selling cheap crap to TJ owners long before the JK came out, they didn't magically pop into existence with the advent of the JK.

 

[Kyle_W]

Like most things, you need to dig further into the root cause. Walmart, Harbor Freight, 4 Wheel Parts, etc. wouldn't be able to sell as much as they do if the demand for cheaper crap that looks similar to the good stuff wasn't as high as it is.

The mantra of US consumers isn't "I paid more than you did", it is "I paid less than you did and I got the same thing". See, it has a motor, a drum to wind in the line, a place to plug in the controller, it's black, and it bolts to my front bumper. Must be the same, right?

I also think you're a tiny bit confused on the margins on this stuff and why they sell it. A lot of my brake parts are made overseas. I have a dealer account with the company. My margins are the same between the very high quality premium versions and the low quality economy versions. The other companies I chat with report that they make far less on the economy stuff than they do on the premium stuff.

The only reason they sell it is because when Joe Soccer Pop drops off the minivan to get brakes put on it, he never ever tells them to spare no expense to get his brakes working. The shop isn't going to demand the premium product, they get the economy stuff and they bounce that price between two or three different warehouses to get a better price which dilutes the margin further.

Cheap crap isn't the fault of the companies that sell it, it is the fault of the consumer who demands a lower price.

Another thing you might take into consideration is 4 Wheel Parts, 4 Wheel Drive Hardware, Quadratec, etc. were selling cheap crap to TJ owners long before the JK came out, they didn't magically pop into existence with the advent of the JK.

Good point...now that I think about it, I see plenty of TJ's with low quality accessories on them! I just see more JK's than any other Jeep sporting all the pot metal bumpers and cheaper alloy wheels.

And, that's also a very correct statement. I'm as guilty as that as the next guy - I however certainly try to get higher quality American made tools, and purchase from companies like Warn and Red Wing shoes that still manufacture a lot of goods in the US.

So in your experience, the margins are the same, however, the lower quality items are what actually bring in the big bucks because far more people are going to buy those items than buy expensive items?

 

[mrblaine]

Good point...now that I think about it, I see plenty of TJ's with low quality accessories on them! I just see more JK's than any other Jeep sporting all the pot metal bumpers and cheaper alloy wheels.

And, that's also a very correct statement. I'm as guilty as that as the next guy - I however certainly try to get higher quality American made tools, and purchase from companies like Warn and Red Wing shoes that still manufacture a lot of goods in the US.

I do the same but here is my current conundrum. I'm looking for a 10 ton porta-power. I don't need the daily heavy duty use duty cycle of the one made by Enerpac which is phenomenal quality, but I don't want the 79 dollar one from Harbor Freight. I'm quite happy with something more middle of the road in quality and price or around 3-500 bucks and that is a very difficult option to find because there are so many in the 150ish range that you can't tell if the one in the 500 dollar range is just the same at a much higher price.

So in your experience, the margins are the same, however, the lower quality items are what actually bring in the big bucks because far more people are going to buy those items than buy expensive items?

Simple POMA numbers to illustrate the math somewhat because the margin is a percentage of retail.

I'll use Rock Auto since I know they work on about a 5% margin.

Front and rear set of TJ rotors economy- 59.82 with profit of 2.99
Front and rear set of TJ rotors premium- 125.16 with profit of 6.25

On something just as simple as a set of brake rotors, they have to sell twice as many to make the same money and they have to service twice as many transactions and deal with twice as many drop ship requests, tracking the order etc. The margins are the same percentage wise but the overall profit per sale is much less so you have to work twice as hard for your money.

That is what I meant by the margins being the same. I'm not sure if RA has the same selling experience as a brake warehouse where they can't even move the premium stuff.

 

[Kyle_W]

I do the same but here is my current conundrum. I'm looking for a 10 ton porta-power. I don't need the daily heavy duty use duty cycle of the one made by Enerpac which is phenomenal quality, but I don't want the 79 dollar one from Harbor Freight. I'm quite happy with something more middle of the road in quality and price or around 3-500 bucks and that is a very difficult option to find because there are so many in the 150ish range that you can't tell if the one in the 500 dollar range is just the same at a much higher price.

Simple POMA numbers to illustrate the math somewhat because the margin is a percentage of retail.

I'll use Rock Auto since I know they work on about a 5% margin.

Front and rear set of TJ rotors economy- 59.82 with profit of 2.99
Front and rear set of TJ rotors premium- 125.16 with profit of 6.25

On something just as simple as a set of brake rotors, they have to sell twice as many to make the same money and they have to service twice as many transactions and deal with twice as many drop ship requests, tracking the order etc. The margins are the same percentage wise but the overall profit per sale is much less so you have to work twice as hard for your money.

That is what I meant by the margins being the same. I'm not sure if RA has the same selling experience as a brake warehouse where they can't even move the premium stuff.

Haha If you lived near me, i'd sell you a generator that I want to get rid of!

With something that's as neat as a generator though, i'd go ahead and get something you'd be proud to have, like a Briggs and Stratton or (yes I know...foreign...but their engines are amazing) a Honda.

My Grandpa has a harbor freight generator, and while it does its job, it just isn't the same as a decent / good quality generator like a Generac.

And, that's surprising to me honestly. Thank you for sharing that! And, like you said, more often than not the consumer is going to buy that economy brand, which will still outweigh the quality brand with how many I imagine are being sold.

 

[mrblaine]

Haha If you lived near me, i'd sell you a generator that I want to get rid of!

With something that's as neat as a generator though, i'd go ahead and get something you'd be proud to have, like a Briggs and Stratton or (yes I know...foreign...but their engines are amazing) a Honda.

My Grandpa has a harbor freight generator, and while it does its job, it just isn't the same as a decent / good quality generator like a Generac.

And, that's surprising to me honestly. Thank you for sharing that! And, like you said, more often than not the consumer is going to buy that economy brand, which will still outweigh the quality brand with how many I imagine are being sold.

I have a friend that wheels with us from time to time and he bought one of the Honda EU 3000 knock offs. After dicking with it for a couple of years, he now has a Honda.

I'm guessing from your generator comments that you are unfamiliar with a Porta-power?

 

[TJ4Jim]

I have a friend that wheels with us from time to time and he bought one of the Honda EU 3000 knock offs. After dicking with it for a couple of years, he now has a Honda.

I'm guessing from your generator comments that you are unfamiliar with a Porta-power?

Well Porta-power hydraulics are like winches and EnerPac is the Warn of the industry, I never used any other brand besides them. Did a lot of heavy lifting/rigging over the years and they were the best.

A friend of mine had a set from Northern tool that I think was made by Black Hawk and the quality was decent for the price point.

 

[Kyle_W]

I have a friend that wheels with us from time to time and he bought one of the Honda EU 3000 knock offs. After dicking with it for a couple of years, he now has a Honda.

I'm guessing from your generator comments that you are unfamiliar with a Porta-power?

I just thought it was slang for a generator - I'll look up what it actually is though so I don't look like a fool!

 

[TJ4Jim]

I just thought it was slang for a generator - I'll look up what it actually is though so I don't look like a fool!

Looks something like this:

 

[mrblaine]

Looks something like this:View attachment 12431

Exactly. We need one for suspension work to pry down an axle or spread a mount open from time to time.