Project 1-tons and 40s

[Wildman]

I'm probably about the same as you; 60.5 wms, 35x12.5 tires, 8" wheels with 3.75" backspacing. Should be about 73.5" overall. I've never had issues in Washington, but in Moab it gets a bit squirrely when I'm off camber, so I would hoping to go up to 76" or so with 37s.

I'll probably end up going that way; 65 wms, 76" overall on 37s. Just wondering if I can keep the door open for 39s if I want to someday.

Looks like being sub 80 is ideal for Washington.

The whole width of the axle and then choosing the proper backspacing can sometimes be harder than you want . You want that wider axle to help with stability and to move the tire away from the frame since as you go taller the tire can contact your frame or other suspension parts. And as was pointed out you need to look at what all this is doing to your steering geometry. In your numbers above you said you were at 73.5" wide with a 60.5" WMS axle. So if going to a 65" WMS axle wouldn't that make you closer to 78"WMS with the same rims?

I think you should start a build thread so you can get answers to questions and talk about what you're doing to your Jeep. Then you'll have stuff in one place where you can come back and look at it.

Edit:
When I built my front axle I went with Waggy width for 2 reasons:
1) I'd bought a TeraLow CRD60 that was stock TJ width
2) At the time I'd never planned on going larger than 35" tires.

So if I was doing this all over again I would have gone with a 63" or left it at 65" WMS.

 

[PNW_LJ]

I think you should start a build thread so you can get answers to questions and talk about what you're doing to your Jeep. Then you'll have stuff in one place where you can come back and look at it.

Yes, do this.

 

[Thunder Mass]

If you hang on around here long enough you'll get past the negativity and see the good information. There is a large dislike of Metal Cloak here also so be prepared for that. It really is worth sticking around. The wealth of information far outweighs the crap.



Figure that out first before you start doing any major work.



I have 9" wheel & 1" or 1.5" spacers. I need to check again since I don't remember.



My feelings for this is that you build for where you live and will be doing most of your wheeling and then just wheel within your build when going to other places. I've never felt tippy but I can manipulate my suspension and shift my body to the high side. I don't have coil springs or coilovers instead I have air springs.



I've got their 8" flares because I wanted to try and cover my tires as much as possible for the times I did drive it on the street. Yes those Baja Pro XS tires have a pretty big bulge. I'll try to get something on the tires so I can get a good measurement. My front axle is Waggy width.



There are some tighter trails in the Naches & Rimrock area where a TJ body barely fits between the trees. The one thing is that I'm a huge believer in staying on the actual trail. I don't do bypasses around these tight spots. You can see where people have to fit their larger rigs thru some spots but this is what also gets trails closed.
The Rattllesnake trail has a max width of 75" and I think a WB restriction of 100". But within 3 months of it being reopened people had gone in and cut out the tight turns,



Why do you keep breaking your Dana 30? What are you breaking? I've seen Dana 30's on 36" TSL tires live behind a CJ with a V-8.

I know there's great info on here, but yes it's hard to navigate past the rest. Kinda like when I was in the navy; people are more interested in telling you that you're wrong than educating you so you can be better.

For now, I'm aiming at 37s with a 76" overall width, and 103" wheelbase. But if I end up going with 60s instead of 44s, I'd like to keep the possibility of going to 39s and a stretch open. That's why I probably won't swap to mid arms or outboard the shocks until I have some time with the 37s.

I agree, build for where you wheel the most. That's a little hard for me because while I wheel every month or so in Washington, Moab is so important to me that I'd like it to work well there too.

I figure if I go with an AEV style highline, I can get 74" of coverage, and with the metalcloaks I can get 76". That and max trail width are my deciding factors. If there is a certain line on a trail I can't take, that's fine. But I don't want to be completely excluded because of width.

I bent my low pinion passenger tube/driver C, either in Tillamook (my first big wheeling trip) or frankly on a pothole going about 50mph on the same trip. My high pinion 30 I chipped the teeth on, likely when I was stuck in mud for a few hours in Moab. Same high pinion is now bent, though it may have always been. It just became an issue after my last trip to Moab for EJS 23, after doing Pickle and Metal Masher. But, it might have always been bent, and switching to ball joint deletes made the issue more obvious.

And if you hang around longer enougher, you might realize there are technical and defendable reasons why certain things like Metalcloak is dishonest crap, thanks to the wealth of information here.



An example of this valuable wealth of information is an understanding of the importance of steering axis inclination, and how to select an axle width and wheel backspacing to avoid bad steering and ruining ball joints. All of which is based on defendable tech, and not simply a baseless attack founded on indiscriminate negativity.

I have learned that metalcloak doesn't provide the same benefits of highlines as they claim. I'm interested in them because how easy it is to remove the flairs, and it seems it's possible to convert them into actual highlines, similar to DIY AEV highlines. I need fender coverage, so having wide fenders on the road that I can remove when I'm in the trees is ideal for me, as long as I can actually get the uptravel.

Regarding steering, that's something I'm just starting to learn about. I have factory axles, with 3.75" backspacing and 35X12.5 tires. I wonder if it would be better to have wider axles and more backspacing, like the 5.5" backspacing from the factory. I built my Jeep 5 years ago based on what I was advised to do here; was that the wrong way to do it, or was that acceptable so I didn't have to pay for new axles?

 

[Thunder Mass]

The whole width of the axle and then choosing the proper backspacing can sometimes be harder than you want . You want that wider axle to help with stability and to move the tire away from the frame since as you go taller the tire can contact your frame or other suspension parts. And as was pointed out you need to look at what all this is doing to your steering geometry. In your numbers above you said you were at 73.5" wide with a 60.5" WMS axle. So if going to a 65" WMS axle wouldn't that make you closer to 78"WMS with the same rims?

I think you should start a build thread so you can get answers to questions and talk about what you're doing to your Jeep. Then you'll have stuff in one place where you can come back and look at it.

Edit:
When I built my front axle I went with Waggy width for 2 reasons:
1) I'd bought a TeraLow CRD60 that was stock TJ width
2) At the time I'd never planned on going larger than 35" tires.

So if I was doing this all over again I would have gone with a 63" or left it at 65" WMS.

I won't be using the same wheels if I go to 37s, as I've got 15" wheels and will need to go to 17s. I originally figure for 37s that're 12.5" wide, go with a 65" axle, 5.5" backspacing (I have no idea, just went back to factory) and end up with 74.5". Then I thought either go with 1-2" wider axles, or less backspacing for the 37s.

I won't know if I will go to 39s until I try 37s, or if they just won't fit on the trails. That's why I was hoping to get an axle width (67?) that would work for either 37s or 39s, just with different backspacing. Whatever (mostly ) fits under my fenders, fits the trails, won't rub, and isn't harsh on my steering. If I can't do that, I'll probably just stick with 37s and hope for the best.

Yes, do this.

I will, when I get closer to doing the new build.

 

[Wildman]

I know there's great info on here, but yes it's hard to navigate past the rest. Kinda like when I was in the navy; people are more interested in telling you that you're wrong than educating you so you can be better.

For now, I'm aiming at 37s with a 76" overall width, and 103" wheelbase. But if I end up going with 60s instead of 44s, I'd like to keep the possibility of going to 39s and a stretch open. That's why I probably won't swap to mid arms or outboard the shocks until I have some time with the 37s.

I agree, build for where you wheel the most. That's a little hard for me because while I wheel every month or so in Washington, Moab is so important to me that I'd like it to work well there too.

I figure if I go with an AEV style highline, I can get 74" of coverage, and with the metalcloaks I can get 76". That and max trail width are my deciding factors. If there is a certain line on a trail I can't take, that's fine. But I don't want to be completely excluded because of width.

I bent my low pinion passenger tube/driver C, either in Tillamook (my first big wheeling trip) or frankly on a pothole going about 50mph on the same trip. My high pinion 30 I chipped the teeth on, likely when I was stuck in mud for a few hours in Moab. Same high pinion is now bent, though it may have always been. It just became an issue after my last trip to Moab for EJS 23, after doing Pickle and Metal Masher. But, it might have always been bent, and switching to ball joint deletes made the issue more obvious.

Military can be like that. I did it for 28 year total. 14 years active duty and 14 years in the guard with the last three activated for Iraq & then was wounded while there.
WOW I'm shocked that you have bent those axles since many run a Dana 30 without issues.

I have learned that metalcloak doesn't provide the same benefits of highlines as they claim. I'm interested in them because how easy it is to remove the flairs, and it seems it's possible to convert them into actual highlines, similar to DIY AEV highlines. I need fender coverage, so having wide fenders on the road that I can remove when I'm in the trees is ideal for me, as long as I can actually get the uptravel.

I like how Jeep West modifies them. And I went with the 8" flare for the same reason so we'll see how well it works out when I can finally get it out on the trails. I used to have Poison Spyder fenders with a 3" flare and their crusher corners with 3" flares and got wedged between some trees a few times. Coming in at an angle can help in that situation sometimes .

Regarding steering, that's something I'm just starting to learn about. I have factory axles, with 3.75" backspacing and 35X12.5 tires. I wonder if it would be better to have wider axles and more backspacing, like the 5.5" backspacing from the factory. I built my Jeep 5 years ago based on what I was advised to do here; was that the wrong way to do it, or was that acceptable so I didn't have to pay for new axles?

My setup isn't perfect but it's not as bad as it might look in the pictures either and I have deletes too. I hadn't planned on having to use the spacers when I was building my Jeep but switched rims in the middle of the build and to clear things it was a necessary evil. I'll deal it like it is for now and start looking for some new axles to build that will work better.

I won't be using the same wheels if I go to 37s, as I've got 15" wheels and will need to go to 17s. I originally figure for 37s that're 12.5" wide, go with a 65" axle, 5.5" backspacing (I have no idea, just went back to factory) and end up with 74.5". Then I thought either go with 1-2" wider axles, or less backspacing for the 37s.

Make sure you pick your axle and tire before you start the build. I've done this to myself twice now. Like I'd said I had built the Jeep never planning on going above 35" and then two years after I'd built it the first time I was going to 38".

I won't know if I will go to 39s until I try 37s, or if they just won't fit on the trails. That's why I was hoping to get an axle width (67?) that would work for either 37s or 39s, just with different backspacing. Whatever (mostly ) fits under my fenders, fits the trails, won't rub, and isn't harsh on my steering. If I can't do that, I'll probably just stick with 37s and hope for the best.

Most people running 40's go with 70" or wider axles. It's more than just the clearance for your steering. There's the tires rubbing on the rear shock tower or the shock body when articulated. I'd got a set of Stazworks 9x16.5 rims with 4" backspacing that have 36x13.5 IRocks along with the Spyderlocks which are 9x17 with 3.5" backspacing with the 38x13.5 Baja Pro XS. So I'll be trying them both out just to see the difference between the two tires.

I will, when I get closer to doing the new build.

The suggestion is to help get all your questions into one place instead of having a bunch of questioned in a ton of threads so when you need to look at something it's in one spot to look at for it.

 

[jjvw]

....
I have learned that metalcloak doesn't provide the same benefits of highlines as they claim. I'm interested in them because how easy it is to remove the flairs, and it seems it's possible to convert them into actual highlines, similar to DIY AEV highlines. I need fender coverage, so having wide fenders on the road that I can remove when I'm in the trees is ideal for me, as long as I can actually get the uptravel.

...

There is nothing special about Metalcloak fenders that allows them to be DIY highlined over anything else. You are doing the same kind of work to whatever you choose.

The vast majority of DIY highlines are not done the way AEV did it. AEV kept the inner fender in the stock position and effectively opened up the pinch seam just inside the hood and raised that up with the outer fender. There is a wall to cover the step in height change between inner and outer fender. I recall only seen one DIY done that way about 10 years ago on JeepForum.

The typical highline fender is done the same way, except that stepped wall is angled to create more tire room. The result is less room to remount everything that was originally on the inner fender.

 

[Thunder Mass]

There is nothing special about Metalcloak fenders that allows them to be DIY highlined over anything else. You are doing the same kind of work to whatever you choose.

The vast majority of DIY highlines are not done the way AEV did it. AEV kept the inner fender in the stock position and effectively opened up the pinch seam just inside the hood and raised that up with the outer fender. There is a wall to cover the step in height change between inner and outer fender. I recall only seen one DIY done that way about 10 years ago on JeepForum.

The typical highline fender is done the same way, except that stepped wall is angled to create more tire room. The result is less room to remount everything that was originally on the inner fender.

The only thing about the metalcloak is that the flares are easily removed, so I can keep them on for the street, and remove them for the trails.

There's a shop Wildman recommended in Portland that does the highlines, I'll look into them next time I'm down that way. Not sure which way they do it, probably not the AEV way.

So AEV didn't have the issue of relocating stuff in the engine bay, but didn't have as much clearance as most other highlines? As much as I'd like to do an LS swap someday, I always assumed it would be easier to highline a 4.0 than a V8.

 

[jjvw]

....

So AEV didn't have the issue of relocating stuff in the engine bay, but didn't have as much clearance as most other highlines? As much as I'd like to do an LS swap someday, I always assumed it would be easier to highline a 4.0 than a V8.

AEV was always a bit of a compromise in clearance compared to a traditional highline fender.

As far as highlines with an LS, many have done it. I don't see why it would be any easier or harder around one engine or another.

 

[Thunder Mass]

AEV was always a bit of a compromise in clearance compared to a traditional highline fender.

As far as highlines with an LS, many have done it. I don't see why it would be any easier or harder around one engine or another.

Gotcha.

Because the 4.0 is a straight 6 and the LS is in a V configuration, it's a lot wider. If the highline reduces the room under the hood for wheel well mounted components, I figured a wider engine would only exasperate the issue. Not impossible to work around, just more difficult.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Gotcha.

Because the 4.0 is a straight 6 and the LS is in a V configuration, it's a lot wider. If the highline reduces the room under the hood for wheel well mounted components, I figured a wider engine would only exasperate the issue. Not impossible to work around, just more difficult.

Well, if you are going through all that work to add an LS, then as we say in the South - bless your heart…