Project Pissed Off Wife: A Story of Indecision and Frivolous Spending

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Chris

Chris

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I bought my very first welder and taught myself how to use it during the mid arm install. Then I figured out the outboard. That started two years ago and nothing has fallen off. :)
No kidding? Do you have a lift in the garage?

One thing that always sucks is trying to cycle the suspension on jack stands. Sometimes the jack stands just don't go up high enough. Not to mention that my garage ceiling isn't even tall enough if they did.

I suppose I could do it in the driveway of course.
 

jjvw

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No kidding? Do you have a lift in the garage?

One thing that always sucks is trying to cycle the suspension on jack stands. Sometimes the jack stands just don't go up high enough. Not to mention that my garage ceiling isn't even tall enough if they did.

I suppose I could do it in the driveway of course.
No lift. Nearly all of the Jeep was built in the parking lot of my old shop. It wasn't until much later in the build that I could climb up the elevated loading dock and work in doors. That place is gone, so I'm in limbo for involved projects at the moment. I can't do that kind of work at the apartment.
 
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Chris

Chris

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No lift. Nearly all of the Jeep was built in the parking lot of my old shop. It wasn't until much later in the build that I could climb up the elevated loading dock. That place is gone, so I'm in limbo for involved projects at the moment. I can't do that kind of work at the apartment.
Oh yeah, with an apartment you're SOL. I've tried that in apartments I live in in the past, and they're Nazis about any vehicle work in the parking lot.

I've cycled my axles in the garage, but it's obviously not anywhere near as easy as having the TJ up on a lift and being able to do it that way.
 

psrivats

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The other thing l will say is that Dave really does know TJ suspension very well. His mid arm has a lot of undocumented details that he talked about today and he really has put a lot of thought into it. @jjvw we wish you could have been there to see it and ask better questions in comparison to the Savvy.

If he could fabricate and package it up like Savvy or any of the other places, they will most certainly sell. I just wish the time management and the communication from the shop was handled better.
 
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Chris

Chris

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I would not encourage others to do some of the things I've done to a daily driver and only vehicle. ;)
No kidding... you're a brave man considering it's your daily driver!

What do you need a lift for? I built this in my standard height 2 car garage on harbor freight jack stands. Taught myself how to weld using an inexpensive Hobart welder.

With all the hours you've spent talking to guys not building your Jeep you could have the mid-arm installed by now.


View attachment 63980
I manage to get away with doing this online because I'm simultaneously "working", haha.

Let me ask you this? Do you have a pregnant wife, a 2.5 year old, and a 6 year old?

Trust me... if it wasn't for that, I'd be in the garage greasy as hell doing this, just like I used to do before I ever had kids. I'm telling you man, ever since the kids, I just can't do the sort of stuff I used to. Well, not until they're a little older at least.
 
Oct 31, 2018
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No kidding... you're a brave man considering it's your daily driver!



I manage to get away with doing this online because I'm simultaneously "working", haha.

Let me ask you this? Do you have a pregnant wife, a 2.5 year old, and a 6 year old?

Trust me... if it wasn't for that, I'd be in the garage greasy as hell doing this, just like I used to do before I ever had kids. I'm telling you man, ever since the kids, I just can't do the sort of stuff I used to. Well, not until they're a little older at least.
I was mainly giving you a hard time. I know if I had a shop do anything on my Jeep, I wouldn't be happy with it.

The other thing l will say is that Dave really does know TJ suspension very well. His mid arm has a lot of undocumented details that he talked about today and he really has put a lot of thought into it. @jjvw we wish you could have been there to see it and ask better questions in comparison to the Savvy.

If he could fabricate and package it up like Savvy or any of the other places, they will most certainly sell. I just wish the time management and the communication from the shop was handled better.
He seems to know the rear of a stock TJ suspension very well, since it's basically the exact same with longer arms. The front is basically the same as the Savvy 3 link, except it has stupid bent arms and no axle truss.

Go to KOH or any competition. You are going to see that rear suspension on close to 0% of the rigs there.
 
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Chris

Chris

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I was mainly giving you a hard time. I know if I had a shop do anything on my Jeep, I wouldn't be happy with it.



He seems to know the rear of a stock TJ suspension very well, since it's basically the exact same with longer arms. The front is basically the same as the Savvy 3 link, except it has stupid bent arms and no axle truss.

Go to KOH or any competition. You are going to see that rear suspension on close to 0% of the rigs there.
Believe me, I would love to do it myself if I had the time, make no mistake.

Also, I talked to Dave today about the bent arms. They actually aren't bent up, they're bent inwards, and it looks deceiving, but I saw that red TJ in person today, and they are indeed bent inwards. He said he does this for wheel clearance.

As for the truss, he mentioned he does actually use the Savvy trusses since they sell them separately, but he only uses them on rigs he knows are going to be bashed. He said he doesn't use the truss on his TJ and he's never broken the mounts off, even with serious bashing.

We did get to talking about KOH and the Savvy rigs, and he did briefly mention that the Savvy setup is meant for stuff like that, and ultimately would be the better choice for that type of situation, so he's not disputing that.
 
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Believe me, I would love to do it myself if I had the time, make no mistake.

Also, I talked to Dave today about the bent arms. They actually aren't bent up, they're bent inwards, and it looks deceiving, but I saw that red TJ in person today, and they are indeed bent inwards. He said he does this for wheel clearance.

As for the truss, he mentioned he does actually use the Savvy trusses since they sell them separately, but he only uses them on rigs he knows are going to be bashed. He said he doesn't use the truss on his TJ and he's never broken the mounts off, even with serious bashing.

We did get to talking about KOH and the Savvy rigs, and he did briefly mention that the Savvy setup is meant for stuff like that, and ultimately would be the better choice for that type of situation, so he's not disputing that.
I know he does the bent arms for tire clearance. The reason is why? It's easy to setup the lowers. You put the axle on jack stands, throw a tire on, crank it all the way to the stop, and hold the arm so there is tire clearance. Then, you take note where the end of the arm falls on the frame, and weld your frame bracket there. You get a bit of triangulation in the process.

I brought up KOH specifically and not Johnson Valley on purpose. KOH is over 100 miles of mainly high speed desert racing with some stretches of hardcore climbs and rock crawling. Anything that can do 100 mph through the desert AND climb vert cliffs is going to do well pretty much anywhere including street duty.

There are a lot of poorly designed suspensions that people think work well. People like the Rough Country long arm kit. The arms are too long, the front is a radius arm setup, and the rear has 0 separation at the frame end. That's pretty much a master class in poor suspension geometry.
 
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Chris

Chris

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I know he does the bent arms for tire clearance. The reason is why? It's easy to setup the lowers. You put the axle on jack stands, throw a tire on, crank it all the way to the stop, and hold the arm so there is tire clearance. Then, you take note where the end of the arm falls on the frame, and weld your frame bracket there. You get a bit of triangulation in the process.

I brought up KOH specifically and not Johnson Valley on purpose. KOH is over 100 miles of mainly high speed desert racing with some stretches of hardcore climbs and rock crawling. Anything that can do 100 mph through the desert AND climb vert cliffs is going to do well pretty much anywhere including street duty.

There are a lot of poorly designed suspensions that people think work well. People like the Rough Country long arm kit. The arms are too long, the front is a radius arm setup, and the rear has 0 separation at the frame end. That's pretty much a master class in poor suspension geometry.
Yeah, you bring up a good point, and I wish I could ask Dave that, but being as though I took my TJ from him yesterday, I don't imagine I'll have any time to pick his brain soon. What you're saying makes sense though, and it makes me question his reason for the bent arms even more.

Good point on KOH and JV. Yes, if a suspension can do well in that type of terrain, it's going to do well just about anywhere, no argument there. Which is again more reason that I'm glad I'm going with my gut here and putting the Savvy mid-arm on.

Lastly, it's very, very interesting you bring up the Rough Country long arm. Dave was talking to me yesterday about how he dislikes Metalcloak suspensions and Rough Country, as well as many others, since they don't work out the real details of the suspension geometry, they often just throw it together and don't pay attention to that. However, he said that believe it or not, one of the suspension systems that actually works really well is the Rough Country long arm. He said people who don't know anything will rip on it all day long online, but the way they designed it, it actually works quite well. He said he would never run it himself, but he mentioned it was one of the better designed systems he had seen in terms of "long arm kits". He had a bunch of technical reasons for this (such as the anti-squat being very good), but I can't remember them all.

Weird, huh? I would never think of buying anything from Rough Country.
 
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Yeah, you bring up a good point, and I wish I could ask Dave that, but being as though I took my TJ from him yesterday, I don't imagine I'll have any time to pick his brain soon. What you're saying makes sense though, and it makes me question his reason for the bent arms even more.

Good point on KOH and JV. Yes, if a suspension can do well in that type of terrain, it's going to do well just about anywhere, no argument there. Which is again more reason that I'm glad I'm going with my gut here and putting the Savvy mid-arm on.

Lastly, it's very, very interesting you bring up the Rough Country long arm. Dave was talking to me yesterday about how he dislikes Metalcloak suspensions and Rough Country, as well as many others, since they don't work out the real details of the suspension geometry, they often just throw it together and don't pay attention to that. However, he said that believe it or not, one of the suspension systems that actually works really well is the Rough Country long arm. He said people who don't know anything will rip on it all day long online, but the way they designed it, it actually works quite well. He said he would never run it himself, but he mentioned it was one of the better designed systems he had seen in terms of "long arm kits". He had a bunch of technical reasons for this (such as the anti-squat being very good), but I can't remember them all.

Weird, huh? I would never think of buying anything from Rough Country.
If he thinks that's a good system, you're doing yourself a favor by not letting him butcher your Jeep.

Here's one of the reasons why you run separation at the frame.

The first one is basically what I ended up using on my last Jeep.

Annotation 2018-11-18 083407-before.jpg


Notice the static Anti-Squat (green box) My upper links were adjustable so I could change it.

This is what happens when the frame side upper and lower links are at the same height. I realize this is a single triangulated 4 link (unlike RC that uses a 4 link plus panhard) but the anti-squat changes will be similar.

Annotation 2018-11-18 083746.jpg
 
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Chris

Chris

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If he thinks that's a good system, you're doing yourself a favor by not letting him butcher your Jeep.

Here's one of the reasons why you run separation at the frame.

The first one is basically what I ended up using on my last Jeep.

View attachment 64043

Notice the static Anti-Squat (green box) My upper links were adjustable so I could change it.

This is what happens when the frame side upper and lower links are at the same height. I realize this is a single triangulated 4 link (unlike RC that uses a 4 link plus panhard) but the anti-squat changes will be similar.

View attachment 64044
Wow, that's quite a big difference! I see what you mean.

I'd asked him about playing around with numbers on these computer programs to be able to find the perfect numbers for a lift. He said he used to do that, but it ends up just being a waste of time and he doesn't do it anymore.

Who knows... I can barely keep up with him when chatting with him he has so much information his brain!
 

jjvw

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Wow, that's quite a big difference! I see what you mean.

I'd asked him about playing around with numbers on these computer programs to be able to find the perfect numbers for a lift. He said he used to do that, but it ends up just being a waste of time and he doesn't do it anymore.

Who knows... I can barely keep up with him when chatting with him he has so much information his brain!
The link calculators are a good starting point and help show the way the IC and AS change with different mount locations. But everything changes when the Jeep is no longer sitting still on flat ground.

At the risk of equating the two, neither the Savvy nor JW kits were designed with the calculators. Both are the results of real world testing and refinements over many years by people who understand how a Jeep behaves under dynamic conditions, not just on a fancy spreadsheet.

To play devil's advocate some more, the differences between the spreadsheet and what actually happens while climbing a waterfall might be why the RC long arm might not be doing what the spreadsheet says it should be doing. There is much more going on. But that is not to say it is a good kit to consider.
 
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Chris

Chris

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The link calculators are a good starting point and help show the way the IC and AS change with different mount locations. But everything changes when the Jeep is no longer sitting still on flat ground.

At the risk of equating the two, neither the Savvy nor JW kits were designed with the calculators. Both are the results of real world testing and refinements over many years by people who understand how a Jeep behaves under dynamic conditions, not just on a fancy spreadsheet.

To play devil's advocate some more, the differences between the spreadsheet and what actually happens while climbing a waterfall might be why the RC long arm might not be doing what the spreadsheet says it should be doing. There is much more going on. But that is not to say it is a good kit to consider.
Yeah, I don't think Dave was saying he would consider running the RC long arm, he was just saying that it actually performs a lot better than you'd think, especially a company that builds some pretty questionable products otherwise.

And he was saying exactly what you are. He doesn't care much about the calculators, because he's built his (just like Savvy has with theirs) around real world wheeling, which is going to produce a lot different results than you can plug into a program. He said he still pays attention to his numbers, but he doesn't focus on those like it's the end-all-be-all.
 

bobthetj03

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The one thing I did notice on the pics you posted of JW's mid arm was the lack of bacing of the left front upper. It looks like he's just using the factory cast mount with a JJ. I like Savvy's take on beefing up that mount, adding a small footprint truss, with some simple but effective bracing. I don't know about you, but the left upper arm is taking on some serious work being just a 3 link now.
 
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Chris

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Okay, so I had a chance to install my Antirock today, as well as my JCR front and rear bumpers... well kind of.

So, I start bolting up the rear bumper and get all the bolts in except one. For the life of me, it won't thread into the hole.

Then I took a flashlight and shined it in there to see what was going on, this is what I see:

IMG_2207.JPG


On the inside of the bumper they have a bolt that has been welded to the bumper so that when you put the bolt through on the frame side, it will thread into that bolt.

The bolt was welded so far off center, that there is no way to even start the thread on this bolt! What I think I'm going to have to do is take the bumper off tomorrow and use my Dremel tool to open up the 1/8" steel on the bumper so that the bolt will go all the way through and catch the thread.

Given that I paid almost $1200 for these bumpers, would you guys be mad about this? Mad enough to complain to JCR? Or should I just fix it and keep my mouth shut.

It would be one thing if this was a cheap bumper, but with the price they are charging, in my mind, there shouldn't be errors like this.
 

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