Trail_Krawler & Trail_Willys
- Thread starter kmas0n
- Start date
Do the shocks always move out a little bit like that as you near full bump?
Also - why no driveshaft?
OP
They are actually moving forward not out. Watch the wheels on the jack. The wheelbase is longest at ride height and shortens slightly at bump.
And I haven't ordered it yet. Waiting on one part for the t case. Once that's in,I can measure for the ds.
*I watched it again, it does appear the shocks flare out at the bottom during compression. What we are seeing is one side of a right angle triangle being shortened and increasing the angle of the lower leg. It's also moving forward. Suspension is crazy dynamic
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So if you put something like a rear antirock, you'll have to take care that this forward+outward motion doesn't cause any interference right? Likewise for the tires rubbing on the shock body.
OP
I'm running JL axles, which are only a 1/2" short of "full width" 69.5" . Even with the upper towers nearly touching the body, the tires almost touch the coils on compression and the shocks almost touch the frame on extension. 14" travel shocks require a lot of space to articulate. I'm still working out how to mount the anti Rock for the rear. Either way, the ar will have to go in front of the axle.
OP
Blaine recently posted an excellent "how to" on setting up coil over springs. Before the thread gets fucked up, and Blaine deletes it out of frustration, I'm copy and pasting his initial post here:
This is directly from MrBlaine.
"This is a way, it is not "the" only way.
You need to know the sprung corner weight (CW). I'll use our current coil over (C/O) project as the example since it is fresh.
We bought springs in 200 lb/in x 14" long. We installed them on the shocks with a spacer to hold the rig at our design ride height (DRH) After they were installed, we checked several things to ensure we are getting a reasonably accurate amount of compression on the springs. Shake the rig by rocking side to side with the front tires chocked to help remove any suspension bind and try to get the rig to settle to what it is designed at. Trans in neutral so the rear tires can roll to relieve bind, cargo that is going to be carried in the rig where it goes. Or basically "weigh" the rig how it will be driven most of the time.
That gave us 4.125" of compression in the front, 3.0" of compression in the rear. The math is basic, compression x rate = sprung weight.
Front = 825
Rear = 600
The sprung weight is used with the compression of the shock length from fully extended to get your target spring rate. In our case we are using 14" travel C/Os so here is how that breaks down.
Front DRH is 6" of shaft showing so 8" of shaft is in the body. How far the shaft moved into the body is how far the spring stack compressed which is why we use that number.
Our tuners like 1" of preload (PL) in the front and 2" in the rear. A discussion with your tuner should be had to get what they like. Preload is the amount you compress the spring stack from fully extended when installed on the shock.
That puts us at 9" or 8" + 1" of PL = Total.
The math is dividing the CW by the amount the shaft moved into the shock + PL at DRH.
825 divided by 9 = 91.6 lbs Target Rate.
Once you have the TR, then the guessing game starts. Our tuner doesn't want the upper and lower spring to be more than 100 lbs apart in rate. It is easy to see what springs are out there by going to some place like Poly Performance and Kartek or even Eibach to check the offerings.
The math for 2 springs on a C/O to get the combined rate is product over the sum. Or, multiply the two rates and then divide that by them added together.
After that, then you start with a few selections to see which way it needs to go to get you the rate you are after.
Target Rate = 91.6
200/250 or 50,000 divided by 450 =111.1 which is higher than our TR. We'll start dropping them down with numbers based on what we are able to get in a spring.
175/250 or 43750 divided by 425 = 102.9 so still a bit high.
150/250 or 37,500 divided by 400 = 93.75 which is very close to our target spring rate. It needs to be understood that the gas charge in the reservoir will add some small amount of lift to the spring stack so we shoot for a target rate slightly under what the math gives us for the original target rate.
150/225 or 33,750 divided by 375 = 90 which would work for us but I'd like just a bit less plus I couldn't readily find a 225 lbs/in x 16" lower spring.
150/200 or 30,000 divided by 350 = 85.7 so that's very close to what I think we can use and in fact what we did use.
The above is just to show that you can move the numbers in and out of the formula based on commonly available springs to understand the process easier which is why I called it "guessing" because you are plugging in numbers to see how that moves the rates around to get to what you are after.
Of note, a 14" C/O typically runs a 16" lower spring and a 14" upper. 12" runs a 14" lower and a 12" upper. Our experience is with Fox and King shocks and this works on those. I don't know if others are the same, they should be but you should verify.
To get your preload correct, once the spring stack is installed on the shock, hold it vertical and screw the lower nut down until it just touches the top spring, then screw the lock nut down on that until it touches. Then hold the lock nut and start screwing the main nut down to compress the stack, measure between the two until you reach your preload then screw the lock nut down and lock it in.
The above is pretty accurate. When we got the stacks on the shocks, suspension settled a bit, the rear came in at 7.25" of shaft showing at ride height with a target of 7", the front came in at 6.125 with a target of 6.0. We'll start driving it and get the shocks loosened up, get everything moving and used to moving to settle in and then we'll dial it back in to hit our target numbers. I showed how to arrive at a target rate for the front, the process is the same for the rear."
This is just a reference for myself.
This is directly from MrBlaine.
"This is a way, it is not "the" only way.
You need to know the sprung corner weight (CW). I'll use our current coil over (C/O) project as the example since it is fresh.
We bought springs in 200 lb/in x 14" long. We installed them on the shocks with a spacer to hold the rig at our design ride height (DRH) After they were installed, we checked several things to ensure we are getting a reasonably accurate amount of compression on the springs. Shake the rig by rocking side to side with the front tires chocked to help remove any suspension bind and try to get the rig to settle to what it is designed at. Trans in neutral so the rear tires can roll to relieve bind, cargo that is going to be carried in the rig where it goes. Or basically "weigh" the rig how it will be driven most of the time.
That gave us 4.125" of compression in the front, 3.0" of compression in the rear. The math is basic, compression x rate = sprung weight.
Front = 825
Rear = 600
The sprung weight is used with the compression of the shock length from fully extended to get your target spring rate. In our case we are using 14" travel C/Os so here is how that breaks down.
Front DRH is 6" of shaft showing so 8" of shaft is in the body. How far the shaft moved into the body is how far the spring stack compressed which is why we use that number.
Our tuners like 1" of preload (PL) in the front and 2" in the rear. A discussion with your tuner should be had to get what they like. Preload is the amount you compress the spring stack from fully extended when installed on the shock.
That puts us at 9" or 8" + 1" of PL = Total.
The math is dividing the CW by the amount the shaft moved into the shock + PL at DRH.
825 divided by 9 = 91.6 lbs Target Rate.
Once you have the TR, then the guessing game starts. Our tuner doesn't want the upper and lower spring to be more than 100 lbs apart in rate. It is easy to see what springs are out there by going to some place like Poly Performance and Kartek or even Eibach to check the offerings.
The math for 2 springs on a C/O to get the combined rate is product over the sum. Or, multiply the two rates and then divide that by them added together.
After that, then you start with a few selections to see which way it needs to go to get you the rate you are after.
Target Rate = 91.6
200/250 or 50,000 divided by 450 =111.1 which is higher than our TR. We'll start dropping them down with numbers based on what we are able to get in a spring.
175/250 or 43750 divided by 425 = 102.9 so still a bit high.
150/250 or 37,500 divided by 400 = 93.75 which is very close to our target spring rate. It needs to be understood that the gas charge in the reservoir will add some small amount of lift to the spring stack so we shoot for a target rate slightly under what the math gives us for the original target rate.
150/225 or 33,750 divided by 375 = 90 which would work for us but I'd like just a bit less plus I couldn't readily find a 225 lbs/in x 16" lower spring.
150/200 or 30,000 divided by 350 = 85.7 so that's very close to what I think we can use and in fact what we did use.
The above is just to show that you can move the numbers in and out of the formula based on commonly available springs to understand the process easier which is why I called it "guessing" because you are plugging in numbers to see how that moves the rates around to get to what you are after.
Of note, a 14" C/O typically runs a 16" lower spring and a 14" upper. 12" runs a 14" lower and a 12" upper. Our experience is with Fox and King shocks and this works on those. I don't know if others are the same, they should be but you should verify.
To get your preload correct, once the spring stack is installed on the shock, hold it vertical and screw the lower nut down until it just touches the top spring, then screw the lock nut down on that until it touches. Then hold the lock nut and start screwing the main nut down to compress the stack, measure between the two until you reach your preload then screw the lock nut down and lock it in.
The above is pretty accurate. When we got the stacks on the shocks, suspension settled a bit, the rear came in at 7.25" of shaft showing at ride height with a target of 7", the front came in at 6.125 with a target of 6.0. We'll start driving it and get the shocks loosened up, get everything moving and used to moving to settle in and then we'll dial it back in to hit our target numbers. I showed how to arrive at a target rate for the front, the process is the same for the rear."
This is just a reference for myself.
OP
A rough draft is forming for the front 3 link, steering, and trackbar.
As it sits, the axle is 2.5-3" further forward than the factory setup. Things are tight, and I cannot finalize anything until the drag link shows up. But this is where we are at...
*all of the following pics are at full bump...the point where the axle will smash into things it cannot be allowed to smash into*
The cast OEM mount was cut in 1/2 so there are two "prongs" that protrude up, its common to use these as a key for locating a truss, and to tie into them, to eliminate any chance of the truss rotating. I will be fabricating a mount that will tie into this structure, with a 1 3/4 tube welded to it, to help secure the upper mount. I may cut this tube in 1/2 to keep the mount lower profile and allow me to get more inches of weld. This is a very rough, temporary mock up.
This is my CAD setup... I want to tie into the front diff cover bolts to help secure the upper mount... a truss just isn't going to happen with the 5.3. The front portion will be bolted on, the rear welded on. Welding to nodular cast iron is acceptable, but the more inches of weld the better. This mount will see no lateral force, that's all handled by the trackbar. only front to back forces will be encountered. I'll allow the axle to get within 1/4- 3/8 of the axle to allow for chassis, and bushing flex.
The power steering pulley will actually sit behind the bolt on plate, so its not as close as it looks. Same with the ribs on the pumpkin and the crank.
The plate that's bolted to the diff cover will be gusseted, so it doesn't just fold over under stress. There will be two more bolts along the top of the plate that tie into the welded portion of the mount.
same thing, different angle.
A flat pitman arm for partsmike. the JL knuckles are 6.5" from the ball joint to draglink, so I was planning on drilling the pitman 6.5 for a 1:1 ratio for steering box to knuckle ratio. Would love to hear thoughts on this if anyone has any. In this mockup, it gets supper close but I will likely be trimming a little off the pitman arm. Its also not as close as it looks.
Same thing, different angle. Also, in my parts bin, I found the rear trackbar from a JL 392. its a solid bar with a different bend than the standard JL stuff. It will be a great mock up tool because the angles are absolutely perfect for this setup. With the housing being rotated, it really opens a lot of room up. At full stuff there is plenty of clearance for the diff cover and trackbar and its almost exactly the same length as the drag link I need. cool.
So its a sits, its looking like I should be able to get 2.5 inches of stretch in the front no problem, but I may have to buy a tubing bender for the trackbar. I've always wanted one anyways.
As it sits, the axle is 2.5-3" further forward than the factory setup. Things are tight, and I cannot finalize anything until the drag link shows up. But this is where we are at...
*all of the following pics are at full bump...the point where the axle will smash into things it cannot be allowed to smash into*
The cast OEM mount was cut in 1/2 so there are two "prongs" that protrude up, its common to use these as a key for locating a truss, and to tie into them, to eliminate any chance of the truss rotating. I will be fabricating a mount that will tie into this structure, with a 1 3/4 tube welded to it, to help secure the upper mount. I may cut this tube in 1/2 to keep the mount lower profile and allow me to get more inches of weld. This is a very rough, temporary mock up.
This is my CAD setup... I want to tie into the front diff cover bolts to help secure the upper mount... a truss just isn't going to happen with the 5.3. The front portion will be bolted on, the rear welded on. Welding to nodular cast iron is acceptable, but the more inches of weld the better. This mount will see no lateral force, that's all handled by the trackbar. only front to back forces will be encountered. I'll allow the axle to get within 1/4- 3/8 of the axle to allow for chassis, and bushing flex.
The power steering pulley will actually sit behind the bolt on plate, so its not as close as it looks. Same with the ribs on the pumpkin and the crank.
The plate that's bolted to the diff cover will be gusseted, so it doesn't just fold over under stress. There will be two more bolts along the top of the plate that tie into the welded portion of the mount.
same thing, different angle.
A flat pitman arm for partsmike. the JL knuckles are 6.5" from the ball joint to draglink, so I was planning on drilling the pitman 6.5 for a 1:1 ratio for steering box to knuckle ratio. Would love to hear thoughts on this if anyone has any. In this mockup, it gets supper close but I will likely be trimming a little off the pitman arm. Its also not as close as it looks.
Same thing, different angle. Also, in my parts bin, I found the rear trackbar from a JL 392. its a solid bar with a different bend than the standard JL stuff. It will be a great mock up tool because the angles are absolutely perfect for this setup. With the housing being rotated, it really opens a lot of room up. At full stuff there is plenty of clearance for the diff cover and trackbar and its almost exactly the same length as the drag link I need. cool.
So its a sits, its looking like I should be able to get 2.5 inches of stretch in the front no problem, but I may have to buy a tubing bender for the trackbar. I've always wanted one anyways.
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OP
I should be able to get a solid 6" of up travel from 14" coil over on the equivalent of 4" of lift.
OP
Before I burn anything in, I'm going to mock up the fenders and start flexing things. I'm hopeful that there will be room for the 37's. if there's not, there will be a set of Genright Aluminum Hiline 4" flare fenders for sale and I'll go with the zero flare version.
OP
From CAD to Steel...
Here you can see the internal structure of the mount, 1 3/4" dom tube cut in half. This will get welded to the tabs and then welded to the upper CA mount. There will be a top plate, that will tie the two structures together. The part that welds to the axle is drilled and tapped.
Same thing, different angle. The Upper CA bracket will get welded all along the top of the center section with a gusset for good measure. I'm hoping that tying the diff cover, to the OEM upper mount, to the center section, will be strong enough for enormous abuse.
I believe this is strong enough to take more force than the axle can handle, even with 37's (spoiler... maybe 38s). I'm no engineer, so if anyone has any nuggets of knowledge before I burn it in, I would love to hear it. I want to keep this jeep low, but with massive up travel. A truss would be easier, but would severely limit up travel forcing me to sacrifice COG.
I've watched high COG jeeps climb... its terrifying. BUT...
and this is a big butt...
I'm not willing to accept less than 6" of up-travel.
Here you can see the internal structure of the mount, 1 3/4" dom tube cut in half. This will get welded to the tabs and then welded to the upper CA mount. There will be a top plate, that will tie the two structures together. The part that welds to the axle is drilled and tapped.
Same thing, different angle. The Upper CA bracket will get welded all along the top of the center section with a gusset for good measure. I'm hoping that tying the diff cover, to the OEM upper mount, to the center section, will be strong enough for enormous abuse.
I believe this is strong enough to take more force than the axle can handle, even with 37's (spoiler... maybe 38s). I'm no engineer, so if anyone has any nuggets of knowledge before I burn it in, I would love to hear it. I want to keep this jeep low, but with massive up travel. A truss would be easier, but would severely limit up travel forcing me to sacrifice COG.
I've watched high COG jeeps climb... its terrifying. BUT...
and this is a big butt...
I'm not willing to accept less than 6" of up-travel.
OP
OP
I want it, give me it, it's mine.
All I have is a vice and a dream
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Damn you’ve got the cool tools, Mike.
Kinda... Every once in a while I gotta use production tools for government work, lol. That particular machine is a Hurco VMX64. It's huge... And sits a lot because it's so slow on tool changes.
I had to true up my suspension control arm mount on the motorhome.
This is the side that I really needed to true up. It bolts flat to the frame and shims are used to control camber and caster.
Maybe I'll do a walk through of my "professional shop" in the garage and tools forum... You guys might like to see that. I have some really neat machines...
Sorry Mason... Highjack over
OP
No worries, very cool stuff.
My post was meant to be funny, but until recently, I didn't have the capacity to do even something simple like accurately drill and tap a few holes. I wouldn't have the slightest idea how to use that machine you posted... and until you posted the parts you machined, I didn't even know what it did.
OP
The drag link and tie rod showed up from RPM steering. Its beautiful 2" solid aluminum links milled to accept 1.25 threads with 2.5 ton rod ends.
I need to tweak the trackbar a bit still, but its the exact same length as the drag link, just need to change the angle. Also, before I make anything permanent, I need to install the grill and radiator to check for clearances in front of the axle.
So how much stretch did I end up with?
Currently 102.5
So right around 2.5" front stretch, 7" rear stretch
I need to tweak the trackbar a bit still, but its the exact same length as the drag link, just need to change the angle. Also, before I make anything permanent, I need to install the grill and radiator to check for clearances in front of the axle.
So how much stretch did I end up with?
Currently 102.5
So right around 2.5" front stretch, 7" rear stretch
OP
And the obligatory IG link
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CfkX1pRpz9p/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CfkX1pRpz9p/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet