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mrblaine

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ok.........i thought i read the molecules are bigger and therefore don't permeate materials at the rate air does. or pump in moisture if you don't run an FR.
At the heart of it, we already run 78% nitrogen if we use compressed air. It is virtually impossible to get pure nitrogen in a tire anyway since you would have to seal the beads and pull a vacuum or run two valve stems opposite and fill one while purging the other. At best, we are going to be running some amount slightly less than they want you to believe and slightly more than you have now.
so all these nitro filled shocks are just a purity thing for the internal sys then basically?
I once won a 50 dollar bet from a guy who built KOH type race cars for the desert. He said the reason they run nitrogen in shocks was to prevent pressure changes under temperature changes. I told him that science said he was mistaken. He said to hold up a minute, he was going to call Lance and get the answer straight from the horse's mouth. He made the call, chatted a bit, came back and handed me my 50. Ok thanks, so, who is Lance? Oh, that's Lance King from King Shocks, he says we run nitrogen because it is cheap and convenient and isn't compressed air which most don't have a good enough dryer for to get rid of moisture which is bad. We can run air if it is dry.
 

Mike_H

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At the heart of it, we already run 78% nitrogen if we use compressed air. It is virtually impossible to get pure nitrogen in a tire anyway since you would have to seal the beads and pull a vacuum or run two valve stems opposite and fill one while purging the other. At best, we are going to be running some amount slightly less than they want you to believe and slightly more than you have now.

I once won a 50 dollar bet from a guy who built KOH type race cars for the desert. He said the reason they run nitrogen in shocks was to prevent pressure changes under temperature changes. I told him that science said he was mistaken. He said to hold up a minute, he was going to call Lance and get the answer straight from the horse's mouth. He made the call, chatted a bit, came back and handed me my 50. Ok thanks, so, who is Lance? Oh, that's Lance King from King Shocks, he says we run nitrogen because it is cheap and convenient and isn't compressed air which most don't have a good enough dryer for to get rid of moisture which is bad. We can run air if it is dry.

Beat me to it...I was going to comment that the reason Nitrogen is ran in shocks is the lack of moisture. You really don't want that water in your expensive steel body shocks, rusting it internally. And...nitrogen is indeed cheap
 
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toximus

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20220805_232948.jpg
 

someguysjeep

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got it.....thanks for the clarification...........so the only benefit is it's contaminant free? moisture being the main culprit.

edited............been reading .......does not support moisture or combustibility, most say, it will keep a wheel at pressure up to 30% longer (based on permeation) and for our application, temp swings effect both air and pure gas equally..

i cannot find info on humidity levels of pumped air and effects to anything pressure related. most state it's just not good for the inner rim surfaces and can degrade it.

is this accurate to most? sorry toximus , keep the gas for the shocks.
 
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toximus

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got it.....thanks for the clarification...........so the only benefit is it's contaminant free? moisture being the main culprit.

edited............been reading .......does not support moisture or combustibility, most say, it will keep a wheel at pressure up to 30% longer (based on permeation) and for our application, temp swings effect both air and pure gas equally..

i cannot find info on humidity levels of pumped air and effects to anything pressure related. most state it's just not good for the inner rim surfaces and can degrade it.

is this accurate to most? sorry toximus , keep the gas for the shocks.

We all learned something! I previously thought permeation would be less with nitrogen. Turns out that either of the molecules are larger than the liner used in tires.
 
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someguysjeep

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We all learned something! I previously thought permeation would be less with nitrogen. Turns out that either of the molecules are larger than the liner used in tires.

i certainly don't think an arguable 30% over a months time is worth any incurred cost to use gas. the investment should be a good dryer or filter for the OBA.
 

mrblaine

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We all learned something! I previously thought permeation would be less with nitrogen. Turns out that either of the molecules are larger than the liner used in tires.

For the sake of discussion, even if the permeation through the butyl liner is less with nitrogen, the loss via permeation is only going to be improved by some miniscule amount over what the reduction in the non nitrogen content would be lowered by deflating the tire and then refilling with pure nitrogen. There is still a measurable amount of mixed gas in the tire that is 78% nitrogen. For the permeation to be reduced that means that the remaining 20% of non nitrogen gases in the tire would have to be escaping at a very high rate and that just isn't true. Far too many cars on the road with air in the tires that just don't have inflation loss issues.
 
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NashvilleTJ

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We all learned something! I previously thought permeation would be less with nitrogen. Turns out that either of the molecules are larger than the liner used in tires.

Think about it. If the permeation thing were actually true, the 22% of O2 would leak out of the tire - and you would be left with close to pure N after a few fill ups...
 

someguysjeep

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Think about it. If the permeation thing were actually true, the 22% of O2 would leak out of the tire - and you would be left with close to pure N after a few fill ups...

to be clear the permeation i read about was over time and not a wkly event, it was stated at a month or more.. 30% is a meager improvement in this case. assuming every seal on each wheel is equal.

i'm now more focused on why the don't use it because of water vapor contamination issues in equipment like shocks and struts and now wanna ensure i keep my locker air sys free of vapor post compressor. it's been on my punch list. but now it's importance is clearer to me.
 

mrblaine

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The -8 45 goes onto the adapter for the return side. It has to be clocked to route the hose into the gap between the condenser and lower part of the grill. Once it is clocked, then it has to be tightened down onto the male portion using two wrenches to prevent damage to the hardline. Generally depending on the rig, we have to remove it from the return port, tighten it and then put it back in. Not having one line cross over the other one makes that far easier.
DSC00610.JPG
 
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toximus

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The -8 45 goes onto the adapter for the return side. It has to be clocked to route the hose into the gap between the condenser and lower part of the grill. Once it is clocked, then it has to be tightened down onto the male portion using two wrenches to prevent damage to the hardline. Generally depending on the rig, we have to remove it from the return port, tighten it and then put it back in. Not having one line cross over the other one makes that far easier.
View attachment 348825

Ah. Yup. I can see how this is going to be an issue in a few more minutes.
 

mrblaine

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to be clear the permeation i read about was over time and not a wkly event, it was stated at a month or more.. 30% is a meager improvement in this case. assuming every seal on each wheel is equal.

i'm now more focused on why the don't use it because of water vapor contamination issues in equipment like shocks and struts and now wanna ensure i keep my locker air sys free of vapor post compressor. it's been on my punch list. but now it's importance is clearer to me.

Other than corrosion, the main reason to keep water vapor out of stuff is it does react significantly differently to temperature changes than compressed gases do and not in a good way. Think about steam and the volumetric change from liquid to vapor.
 
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