Roller Fairleads And Synthetic Line

StG58

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What's the deal with running synthetic winch line through a roller fairlead? Everywhere you look, the recommendation is to use a hawse, and not a roller fairlead.

That is contrary to my experience with synthetic line. On a sailboat, I went to some expense and great pains to swap out all of my fairleads to rollers when I swapped to synthetic halyards. (You haven't lived until you've been 45' in the air swapping out sheaves on a bendy three spreader rig!) All the deck fairleads got swapped out for rollers as well. It would seem that the principal is the same. A good, smooth roller fairlead just seems right for synthetic line. What am I missing here?
 
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Got to digging around a little more and it seems that roller fairleads are just fine with synthetic line IF two criteria are met. 1) The rollers overlap at the corners. There have been reports of synthetic line jamming into the corners of a roller fairlead if the rollers don't overlap. Why a wire rope wouldn't jam in the same manner isn't explained. 2) The rollers need to be smooth and undamaged. That makes good sense as synthetic line isn't particularly abrasion resistant.

I did run across another tidbit that I wanted to share. It seems that winches with the brake in the drum can heat the drum up enough to damage Dyneema line. That's at a surprisingly low temperature. At about 140°F Dyneema starts to degrade in strength. Things that make you go Hmmm...
 
I ran a hawse for a while after converting to synthetic maybe 14-15 years ago but converted back to my original Warn fairlead after a year or two.

Think about it... what would create more wear on a synthetic rope? A heavily loaded rope passing over a hawse's fixed edge, or over a fairlead's rolling rollers?

My fairlead's horizontal and vertical rollers overlap to prevent the rope from working its way into the corners and I haven't seen a fairlead whose rollers didn't.
 
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Interesting this discussion has come up.

One thing I always found funny is that the Warn M8000 winch comes with a roller fairlead.

The Warn M8000-S winch on the other hand comes with a hawse fairlead.

So it seems Warn wants you to have a hawse fairlead with the synthetic rope, but a roller fairlead with the steel cable.

I changed my fairlead out on my Warn M8000-S winch to the TRE hawse fairlead that I got from @Garza.

I wonder what @mrblaine thinks about this. I ask because I know Blaine is the mind behind TRE and he has a lot of knowledge with this sort of stuff.

My hawse fairlead does indeed seem like it adds a nice edge for the synthetic rope to get caught on as oppose to a roller fairlead.
 
You would just want to make sure that you had the smoothed any burrs that you had gotten from your old cable. Then you should be fine.
 
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I would think that the worst combination would be a wire rope with a hawse fairlead but I've read that some do it. May be I'm missing something. :nusenuse:
 
Interesting... This is the one I've been running:
https://tacticalrecoveryequipment.com/product-category/hawse-fairleads/safety-thimble-fairlead/

Makes me wonder why this was invented if the roller fairleads are better?
I ran that for a while as you can see below when I first installed it. As I understand it, its benefit is a bit better approach angle if you're doing stuff where your front-end/winch butts up against a rock face before you start a vertical climb.
IMAG1880.jpg
 
I ran that for a while as you can see below when I first installed it. As I understand it, its benefit is a bit better approach angle if you're doing stuff where your front-end/winch butts up against a rock face before you start a vertical climb.
View attachment 10885

Makes sense.

Well, knowing what I know now, I think I'll switch back to a roller fairlead. There's a edge between the hawse fairlead and the bumper that the synthetic rope could easily get caught on (and frayed) if it was at the right angle!
 
Makes sense.

Well, knowing what I know now, I think I'll switch back to a roller fairlead. There's a edge between the hawse fairlead and the bumper that the synthetic rope could easily get caught on (and frayed) if it was at the right angle!
Any of the TRE fairleads are more desirable than any roller fairlead. Especially if you play in the rocks with a Savvy front bumper. The roller lead moves the rope out further into the rocks and makes the likelihood of damage much higher.

The last thing you need is to splice your Thimble back on before you can use your winch.
 
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I ran that for a while as you can see below when I first installed it. As I understand it, its benefit is a bit better approach angle if you're doing stuff where your front-end/winch butts up against a rock face before you start a vertical climb.
View attachment 10885
You'd be doing yourself, your line, and your Thimble a favor by going back to that set up.
 
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Any of the TRE fairleads are more desirable than any roller fairlead. Especially if you play in the rocks with a Savvy front bumper. The roller lead moves the rope out further into the rocks and makes the likelihood of damage much higher.

The last thing you need is to splice your Thimble back on before you can use your winch.

What changed your mind about hawse fairleads? Or is it just TRE hawse's that are ok? I agree that they make quality stuff from what I've seen out of my winch line and safety thimble.
My confusion is coming from a post I made about a year ago where you compared hawse fairleads to a static pulley, which seemed to make logical sense to me. Not trying to call you out, and it's perfectly understandable if you've since changed your mind. I just wanted to pick your brain about it.
 
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What changed your mind about hawse fairleads? Or is it just TRE hawse's that are ok? I agree that they make quality stuff from what I've seen out of my winch line and safety thimble.
My confusion is coming from a post I made about a year ago where you compared hawse fairleads to a static pulley, which seemed to make logical sense to me. Not trying to call you out, and it's perfectly understandable if you've since changed your mind. I just wanted to pick your brain about it.
X2. You had me convinced to stay roller when I finally convert to syn rope.
 
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What changed your mind about hawse fairleads? Or is it just TRE hawse's that are ok? I agree that they make quality stuff from what I've seen out of my winch line and safety thimble.
My confusion is coming from a post I made about a year ago where you compared hawse fairleads to a static pulley, which seemed to make logical sense to me. Not trying to call you out, and it's perfectly understandable if you've since changed your mind. I just wanted to pick your brain about it.
A few things. Education and application mostly. I disagree with most hawse fairleads but if the radius is correct and the opening is the right size, they don't damage the rope much. Where my initial stance on the issue started was with all the BS about needing a plastic hawse and then the subsequent plastic rollers on roller fairleads. That is all pure bullshit and just more vendors succumbing to the ignorance of their customers. I've actually watched a set of Viking Plastic Rollers lock up and not turn when being used. At that point, why have a roller fairlead?

I was also battling misinformation. I've seen several vendors state that you "need" one of our aluminum hawse fairleads to protect your rope. I called a couple of them and asked a simple question. If you took the pulley in your snatch block and bolted it to one of the side plates so it couldn't turn would you still use it? The answer was always no, what fool would do that? I'd reply, "well, you're saying the same thing by telling folks your aluminum hawse fairlead is needed to protect the line and is better than a roller". crickets.......

I've seen a lot of hawse fairleads that are made without any thought given to the design in that the outside radius is small and hard on the rope. TRE's aren't that way.

I've seen a lot of fairleads with very large openings. TRE's aren't that way. The large opening is an issue because most owners don't know to check behind the fairlead and make sure the mount has a hole larger than the opening in the fairlead so the rope doesn't come into contact with the sharp edges.

The whole plastic fairlead thing was just ridiculous and I was astounded at the number of smart folks that actually promoted them. They failed in one critical aspect and that was strength. If you pull up to a waterfall and the anchor point is above you, you are essentially lifting the front of the rig off the ground. Plastic fairleads deflect and let the rope come into contact with the mount and get cut which is the opposite of what the fairlead is supposed to do.

Ricky asked me to assist in the design and I was pleased to offer my input, a lot of which has been incorporated into the products.

Another pet peeve is a smart company like Warn puts a big ass steel thimble and hook on their synthetic lines with aluminum fairleads. The thimble gets sucked into the opening and damages it and then you drag the plastic rope over the damage under load and damage the rope. Really Warn? Ya'll are smarter than that.
 
X2. You had me convinced to stay roller when I finally convert to syn rope.
Either works as long as the hawse is correct and the rollers are clean. I don't like the forward protrusion of the rollers or the weight but that doesn't make them a bad option. We tore up too many thimbles and damaged too many ropes running them into rocks to continue with them. If you don't have that issue, stay with the roller.
 
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That's a fair explanation. The plastic fairleads was a stupid idea from the start. It'd be nice if all companies thought about the consequences of a product rather than just the profit/marketing/flavor of the month.

What you said about the difference in the size of opening of the winch plate vs. the fairlead was a big factor. It was something I hadn't thought of, but definitely wanted to avoid. I'm glad you and Ricky were able to work together and make a product that actually works. I have been extremely impressed with the thimble, mostly for its simplicity and efficacy.

I don't wheel were waterfalls or giant rocks are even a concern, so I'll stay with my roller for now...at least until I feel some money burning in my pocket.