Savvy off-road sold? (the unofficial Savvy customer support and Savvy rant thread)

Do you even know what you bought?

No, not at all, and there is no indication on the site that what you are ordering may be different than what's pictured. It's concerning that any changes are being made considering how well received the original kit is; I hope the updates are slight aesthetic changes with all geometry kept the same. I asked Gerald what had changed with the new kit, and he responded that they'd ship once he returned from vacation. (So no answer) I'll post up here if I get any additional details.
 
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I'm guessing they will be the "new" batch since they have not shipped (his was order 4/24). any ideas what changed?

I asked what had changed and did not get an answer. Could be aesthetic, geometry, or both updates to either the brackets or the trusses or both. Let's hope for no changes to geometry and only slight aesthetic changes.
 
I asked what had changed and did not get an answer. Could be aesthetic, geometry, or both updates to either the brackets or the trusses or both. Let's hope for no changes to geometry and only slight aesthetic changes.

I will ask you the same question I asked @jjvw in a different thread. I take it that you are an Utopist?

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I will ask you the same question I asked @jjvw in a different thread. I take it that you are an Utopist?

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Damn, I feel seen! :)

@Sunny Side Up I asked Gerald again for clarification on the updates made to the mid-arm kit. He got back to me quickly and said they did not change the geometry of any brackets or trusses; they only added a few gussets. Every so often, my Utopist disposition doesn't fully betray me!
 
Damn, I feel seen! :)

@Sunny Side Up I asked Gerald again for clarification on the updates made to the mid-arm kit. He got back to me quickly and said they did not change the geometry of any brackets or trusses; they only added a few gussets. ...

That's funny when the recent midarm kit I saw had fewer gussets than my first production run has.
 
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So, The new CEO, Jake Glaser, is also the VP of an endoscope repair facility in Sunrise Florida (the address provided on the new Savvy website). Will Periman is an offroad influencer for Elevated Experience and based out of Salt Lake City (the phone number from the new Savvy website).

Seeing who the new owners are, are there any bets that they just bought for a quick money grab, and will sell off to a foreign conglomerate within a couple years?

EDIT - Oh, and anyone else notice that their experience changes from different venues from 15 years each, to over 20 years?
 
Yeah. If he really did wheel it, he wouldn't worry about others parking near him.

Sunrise is in South Florida, due west of Ft Lauderdale, right at the border of the everglades... Only 2 types of wheeling there... sandy swamp or Mall Crawling (Hmm, Sawgrass Mills Mall IS located there too...)
 
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I accept your explanation about the diesel radiator. I still hold that its completely possible to build a radiator that will last for the TJ. It wouldn't look like the one that's in it - or in my diesel for that matter, obviously.

Need to get Joe in here and pick his brain on that one. I suspect the limitations on all the things that make a radiator work will also severely complicate the final design and ultimately the efficiency of the cooling abilities.

If you bump up the tube wall thickness to increase the pressure handling ability, it will take longer for the heat tranfer to get to the fins. If you add more fins to help overcome that, you restrict the air flow through the core and knock any gains back down to below what would be gained by adding more fins.

Since I don't see many issues with the actual cores on the TJ radiator, I suspect it may be very possible to just make a better tank for each end. I don't know that anyone would pay for it but a nicely stamped aluminum tank with welded water necks would be where I would start. The o-ring seal would have to be improved and someone a lot smarter than me will have to figure that one out.

What we need is a furnace brazed copper core and then some very robust brass tanks. I suspect we could deal with soldering the tank to the core if we could get rid of the solder in the tube to fin interface.

Pretty much all of what's said here checks out.

1. Modify fin density as last resort. It has a pretty significant impact to airflow, and it can get bad especially fast when you have an engine mounted fan that needs an inch of blade tip clearance inside the shroud.

2. Heat conduction has a lot of parallels with electrical conduction. Thicker material is more resistive just like a longer wire has more electrical resistance than a shorter one of the same gauge.

3. my "data" is based on what I see online, but the common failure modes seem to be split tanks and failures at the tank-to-core crimp seal. Aftermarket replacement radiators usually skimp on tube count and fin density which hurts capacity, and they're probably skimping on the thickness and maybe material for tanks leading to a short lifespan. It also appears that Mopar seemed to be the only one that applies the e-coat, which is an important guard against corrosion. Question: do we see a lot of OEM or aftermarket replacements fail by springing a tube leak?

4. On the surface it seems like aluminum tanks welded to an otherwise identical core would knock a lot of them out. The aftermarket all-aluminum radiators that have such a short lifespan are skimping somewhere...if it's at the weld, they have bad welding practices/QC, if it's pinholes in the tube then it's material thickness and lack of e-coat. I haven't looked into it but could very well be skimping on tube count and fin density as well if they don't perform. They're used by the thousands, if not millions in HVACR with 650psig pressure ratings and 15-20 year life expectancies, but it's not exactly the same as an automotive application since though it does get vibrations being attached to rotating equipment (fans and compressors), it doesn't get the shock of a suspension bottoming out or twisting up the front end going over a boulder. (Note: I'm mildly curious about keeping the core exactly as is, but fabricating aluminum tanks to crimp on instead of factory. Would at least cut out the tank splits)

5. Making the exact same (dimensionally) core out of all copper with soldered/brazed tanks would address all of the issues, but
a. I don't have any experience with copper, flattened-tube cores to know what issues there might be with duplicating the current aluminum design
b. copper is about twice as strong, 50% more dense, and 3x the cost, so there would be a compromise between cost and how much thickness can you take out without ending up back where you started.
c. round tube (like a heater core) copper needs more volume to pack the same heat transfer, so you need a thicker core and an electric fan to handle the added air pressure drop.
 
3. my "data" is based on what I see online, but the common failure modes seem to be split tanks and failures at the tank-to-core crimp seal. Aftermarket replacement radiators usually skimp on tube count and fin density which hurts capacity, and they're probably skimping on the thickness and maybe material for tanks leading to a short lifespan. It also appears that Mopar seemed to be the only one that applies the e-coat, which is an important guard against corrosion. Question: do we see a lot of OEM or aftermarket replacements fail by springing a tube leak?
I have yet to see any other failure besides the crimped seal and upper tank rupture for the OEM radiator.
4. On the surface it seems like aluminum tanks welded to an otherwise identical core would knock a lot of them out. The aftermarket all-aluminum radiators that have such a short lifespan are skimping somewhere...if it's at the weld, they have bad welding practices/QC, if it's pinholes in the tube then it's material thickness and lack of e-coat. I haven't looked into it but could very well be skimping on tube count and fin density as well if they don't perform. They're used by the thousands, if not millions in HVACR with 650psig pressure ratings and 15-20 year life expectancies, but it's not exactly the same as an automotive application since though it does get vibrations being attached to rotating equipment (fans and compressors), it doesn't get the shock of a suspension bottoming out or twisting up the front end going over a boulder. (Note: I'm mildly curious about keeping the core exactly as is, but fabricating aluminum tanks to crimp on instead of factory. Would at least cut out the tank splits)
My concern there is even though we can make a tank, we still have to crimp it on an o-ring to seal. I'm not smart enough to solve that problem. I know welding isn't the answer. The twisting up is not an issue. The grill shell very specifically doesn't flex like that in order to protect the radiator.
5. Making the exact same (dimensionally) core out of all copper with soldered/brazed tanks would address all of the issues, but
a. I don't have any experience with copper, flattened-tube cores to know what issues there might be with duplicating the current aluminum design
b. copper is about twice as strong, 50% more dense, and 3x the cost, so there would be a compromise between cost and how much thickness can you take out without ending up back where you started.
c. round tube (like a heater core) copper needs more volume to pack the same heat transfer, so you need a thicker core and an electric fan to handle the added air pressure drop.
 
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I have yet to see any other failure besides the crimped seal and upper tank rupture for the OEM radiator.

good to know. Mine is seeping at the crimp seal.

My concern there is even though we can make a tank, we still have to crimp it on an o-ring to seal. I'm not smart enough to solve that problem. I know welding isn't the answer. The twisting up is not an issue. The grill shell very specifically doesn't flex like that in order to protect the radiator.

Do you have a reason that welding shouldn't be used, or do you just not believe it to be necessary?

This is an all aluminum core with a cast and machined aluminum tank welded on (by a robot). After welding they go into a chamber and get pressurized with hydrogen, to be leak checked with a mass spectrometer. Once they pass that test, they pretty much never fail. They're obviously much bigger than we need, about 5' x 8' and 4" thick.

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good to know. Mine is seeping at the crimp seal.
If it is like 99% of them, only when it is cold and as soon as it warms up, it stops due to expansion. Takes a couple of years for them to fail. You can take some vise grip type pliers and crimp the tabs a little bit tighter and buy lots of time.
Do you have a reason that welding shouldn't be used, or do you just not believe it to be necessary?
I don't see issues with non welded, I see lots of issues with welded.
This is an all aluminum core with a cast and machined aluminum tank welded on (by a robot). After welding they go into a chamber and get pressurized with hydrogen, to be leak checked with a mass spectrometer. Once they pass that test, they pretty much never fail. They're obviously much bigger than we need, about 5' x 8' and 4" thick.

View attachment 435185

The answer is the rigidity of the casting helps the final product. If it was stamped and formed or fabricated, I suspect your defect rate would shoot through the roof.
 
If it is like 99% of them, only when it is cold and as soon as it warms up, it stops due to expansion. Takes a couple of years for them to fail. You can take some vise grip type pliers and crimp the tabs a little bit tighter and buy lots of time.

I just ordered an OEM for mine. Since I parked it a couple months ago to do a psuedo restoration on it it started leaking around the bottom as well and has gotten worse as it sits in my garage. Now I'm wondering if I should just take some pliers to it and save the new rad for a rainy day
 
I just ordered an OEM for mine. Since I parked it a couple months ago to do a psuedo restoration on it it started leaking around the bottom as well and has gotten worse as it sits in my garage. Now I'm wondering if I should just take some pliers to it and save the new rad for a rainy day

Nothing to lose at this point.