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Should I replace this winch hook?

derekmac

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Pictured is the hook that came on the 8274 I picked up. Without seeing a WLL on it, should I replace it, or do the other markings tell us the rating?
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IMG_20190721_094515.jpg
IMG_20190721_094515-01.jpeg
 

chino1969

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Pictured is the hook that came on the 8274 I picked up. Without seeing a WLL on it, should I replace it, or do the other markings tell us the rating?
View attachment 105480View attachment 105481View attachment 105484
A bit of research may give you the answer based on those markings. The pedigreed manufacturers like Crosby have markings on their hooks that will give you an idea of what I'm referring to. Understand that hooks required for lifting and winching may have different criteria. The link provided is for reference only and applies to hooks used for lifting as in overhead cranes or hoists. https://fulcrumlifting.com/crosby-hook-identification-markings-latches/
 
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Mr. Bills

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Looks like a typical 3/8" "clevis slip hook" to me. According to Factor 55 (who probably copied the information from another company, but that is another rant for another day):

[M]ost 3/8 clevis slip hooks have a safe working load limit of 4000-7000 pounds. The average 8K winch exceeds the working load limit of these weak hooks regularly. Of course the safety factor built into the hook is 3-4X, but it is still not wise to exceed any working load limit of any hardware. . . .
I googled the Working Load Limit for 3/8" Grade 70 clevis slip hooks and got varying numbers between 6500-7500 lbs.

I am becoming a fan of the Safety Thimble and will not use the hook that came with my new Warn M8000-S. By safety thimble I mean the real Safety Thimble, not the winch jewelry sold by Factor 55 that isn't a thimble at all but is actually just a fancy pants shackle.

Updated-photo-ST2.png
 
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FireJeep

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The D is probably (changes with who made the hook) a hook type or material of construction identifier, the symbol below that I am unsure of. The 3/8 is obviously the size, but the size of what? Most likely the diameter of the pin that is holding the cable. Most (maybe all??) cable should have a thimble inside the eye or a pin that is at least twice the diameter of the cable itself. If you think about the construction (a version of hawse lay) as the wire rope is turned around an object and then loaded the outside strands are being stretched while the strands on the inside radius are being crushed. I know a good number of winch manufacturers sell wire rope without thimbles, I am just saying that it is not doing the cable any favors by being tightly radiused and unsupported...... just my opinion.....
 

chino1969

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The D is probably (changes with who made the hook) a hook type or material of construction identifier, the symbol below that I am unsure of. The 3/8 is obviously the size, but the size of what? Most likely the diameter of the pin that is holding the cable. Most (maybe all??) cable should have a thimble inside the eye or a pin that is at least twice the diameter of the cable itself. If you think about the construction (a version of hawse lay) as the wire rope is turned around an object and then loaded the outside strands are being stretched while the strands on the inside radius are being crushed. I know a good number of winch manufacturers sell wire rope without thimbles, I am just saying that it is not doing the cable any favors by being tightly radiused and unsupported...... just my opinion.....
Good point about the use of a thimble. You can see the individual strands have separated from each other going around the pin; potential failure points.
 
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derekmac

derekmac

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I was surprised that it didn't have a thimble, then I started looking at other winch lines, and ones from Warn (and others) don't have one either.
 
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mrblaine

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According to Factor 55 (who probably copied the information from another company, but that is another rant for another day):
That gets so tiresome. Great, the WLL limit of a rated hook will be exceeded by the max pull rating on a winch. Okay, if you are going to throw out a WLL on a piece of gear, what is the WLL of the winch? It is patently unfair to the end user to use WLL of one thing and max rating on another to try and dictate a recommended load rating. If that is indeed the actual WLL rated for overhead lifting, the minimum breaking strength will be around 30,000 lbs. (I do not know if they have a different WLL for that hook, but I know that overhead is minimum 5-1 safety factor)
 

Mr. Bills

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That gets so tiresome. Great, the WLL limit of a rated hook will be exceeded by the max pull rating on a winch. Okay, if you are going to throw out a WLL on a piece of gear, what is the WLL of the winch? It is patently unfair to the end user to use WLL of one thing and max rating on another to try and dictate a recommended load rating. If that is indeed the actual WLL rated for overhead lifting, the minimum breaking strength will be around 30,000 lbs. (I do not know if they have a different WLL for that hook, but I know that overhead is minimum 5-1 safety factor)

Don't shoot the messenger. OP asked whether markings on a winch hook other than WLL will reveal its load rating. I did not know the answer but saw the "3/8" cast into the pictured winch hook so I googled "WLL of 3/8" winch hook"
and the very first search result was the text I quoted.
 

Blackjack

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That gets so tiresome. Great, the WLL limit of a rated hook will be exceeded by the max pull rating on a winch. Okay, if you are going to throw out a WLL on a piece of gear, what is the WLL of the winch? It is patently unfair to the end user to use WLL of one thing and max rating on another to try and dictate a recommended load rating. If that is indeed the actual WLL rated for overhead lifting, the minimum breaking strength will be around 30,000 lbs. (I do not know if they have a different WLL for that hook, but I know that overhead is minimum 5-1 safety factor)
Yep happens all to often. Most of the winch companies are using G43 grade hardware which has a minimum breaking strength of 3xWLL. So that 3/8 hook has a breaking strength of 16,200 lbs so more than double what the winch is advertised to pull and certainly more than the wire rope it is attached to.
 

The shuggs

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It's an apples to oranges situation.

Winches are rated by max pull instead of WLL because they stall out as opposed to snapping. They don't need to consider breaking strength, because they stall before they can break (if they are properly maintained). And since they are the component applying the force, they don't need to consider any external loads provided everything is rigged properly.
 

mrblaine

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It's an apples to oranges situation.

Winches are rated by max pull instead of WLL because they stall out as opposed to snapping. They don't need to consider breaking strength, because they stall before they can break (if they are properly maintained). And since they are the component applying the force, they don't need to consider any external loads provided everything is rigged properly.
You really believe that the winch can't pull more than the rating?
 

mrblaine

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Don't shoot the messenger. OP asked whether markings on a winch hook other than WLL will reveal its load rating. I did not know the answer but saw the "3/8" cast into the pictured winch hook so I googled "WLL of 3/8" winch hook"
and the very first search result was the text I quoted.
I wasn't, at all. Just lamentations over the frequency.
 

Mr. Bills

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A tag wired to the Spydura winch rope that came with my new Warn M8000S reads as follows:

WARNING
Always
know the Working Load Limit (WLL) of your rope.
Never exceed the WLL of 10,000 lbs. (4,535 kg.) on VR, CTI, XP, Zeon and M8000 winches.
Never exceed the WLL of 12,000 lbs. (5,443 kg.) on a M12 winch.
Warn's product literature states that 3/8" Spydura is "for Warn winches with 10,000 lbs. (4535 kg) pull rating or less" and that it has a "breaking strength of 10,000 lbs." (3/8" "Spydura Pro" is listed as for winches with a pull rating of up to 16,500 lbs.) Warn does not list a "WLL" for their synthetic winch rope, nor does Master Pull or anyone else that I can find, so that leads to the question, if Working Load Limit uses a design factor to calculate a load limit less than the Breaking Strength, how the hell are we getting away with using the size cables and ropes typically found on a jeep?

As noted here:

A Little About Working Load Limits and Winch Cables
It pays to be super careful about how you use your winch and how you take care of your winch cable. Why? The winch cable supplied with your winch is undersized. Manufacturers often recommend a winch that's rated for 1 1/2 times the weight of your 4x4. But frankly, we think a lot of people wing it or get what their buddies have.
The actual force that your winch needs to generate is determined by:
  • The full weight of your rig, including you, passengers, gas/coolant/oil, tools, tires, spares, camping gear, armor etc.
  • How badly you're stuck
  • If you're tires can roll
  • If you're on a slope
And, very importantly, the majority of winching operations probably exceed the actual Working Load Limit (WLL) of the winch cable. Yes, really. WLL can also be described as the maximum allowed weight or the weight you are not allowed to exceed. The WLL of steel 5/16" cable is 1960 lbs. No joke. The breaking strength is 9800 lbs.
Why do manufacturers get away with this? Probably because we offroaders don't want to be lugging around huge cables or having another 30 lbs hanging off our front bumpers. We can also deal with this by using snatch blocks and double line pulls. But you should always know that your recovery operations can easily take you to the breaking strength of your winch cable.
See: https://www.roundforge.com/articles/how-much-do-synthetic-winch-rope-and-wire-rope-weigh/#A_Little_About_Working_Load_Limits_and_Winch_Cables_

See also: https://www.roundforge.com/articles/all-about-winch-cable/#Working_Load_Limit_vs._Minimum_Breaking_Strength_


Discuss.
 
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derekmac

derekmac

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Thank you all for the replies. I guess me questioning the lack of a WLL being stamped on the hook comes from policies at work for double checking everything we use for rigging for overhead lifts. Everything has to have a WLL, and an up to date inspection tag. If something is missing, it doesn't get used.

In regards to the current hook that's installed, would it be considered safe to use? I just don't want to use something inadequate, though by the sounds of what's already be said above, this should be fine.

I have no issues buying a new hook if you feel this one might not be up to the task. I'd rather be safe with a few less dollars in my pocket than potentially cause damage to equipment or hurt somebody if the hook were to break.
 

mrblaine

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A tag wired to the Spydura winch rope that came with my new Warn M8000S reads as follows:



Warn's product literature states that 3/8" Spydura is "for Warn winches with 10,000 lbs. (4535 kg) pull rating or less" and that it has a "breaking strength of 10,000 lbs." (3/8" "Spydura Pro" is listed as for winches with a pull rating of up to 16,500 lbs.) Warn does not list a "WLL" for their synthetic winch rope, nor does Master Pull or anyone else that I can find, so that leads to the question, if Working Load Limit uses a design factor to calculate a load limit less than the Breaking Strength, how the hell are we getting away with using the size cables and ropes typically found on a jeep?

As noted here:



See: https://www.roundforge.com/articles/how-much-do-synthetic-winch-rope-and-wire-rope-weigh/#A_Little_About_Working_Load_Limits_and_Winch_Cables_

See also: https://www.roundforge.com/articles/all-about-winch-cable/#Working_Load_Limit_vs._Minimum_Breaking_Strength_


Discuss.
We've been over this many times. You don't mix the WLL and design factors with an entirely different industry and its practices. First and foremost reason is the thing on the front of your bumper that turns and reels in line, is not a hoist. WLL are used with a 5-1 safety factor with hoists, not winches.