You could just ditch the hook and just use a 3/4 inch shackle. Most of the time one is required when setting up anyway.
Should I replace this winch hook?
- Thread starter derekmac
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You could just ditch the hook and just use a 3/4 inch shackle. Most of the time one is required when setting up anyway.
I understand the difference between winching and hoisting. It seems a simple enough winching maxim to say, "Pay attention to the breaking strength of your winch rope and the load limits of each component as affected by the manner in which each component is being used and remember that the system is no stronger than the weakest piece." However, the fact that shackles, hooks, etc. have designed safety factors in excess of marked working load limits seems to be mentioned in every winching thread and the implication is frequently that winch rope breaking strength and stamped WLL markings can be exceeded with impunity because of those safety factors..
If design factors don't apply to vehicle self-recovery with a winch why are design factors always mentioned? Why are these safety factors mentioned by companies in the winching business who we should expect to be able to rely upon as experts? That's what confuses me.
The problem lies in that recreational winch manufactures are in this weird grey space between all the different .gov and manufacturing standards. Intermittent duty winches are supposed to fall under SAE J706 standards and because many recreational winch users do not like the appearance of winches that meet those standards they build winches that do not. As a consequence the rigging used will not fit any industry or .gov standards nor would recreational winch users want to use rigging that does meet those standards. Also to avoid excessive insurance costs or lawyers fees most winch companies do not provide much if any accurate info as that can be used in litigation or by competitors for false advertising claims (ie the Milemarker vs Peterson 4wheel and Warn mess in the late 90s).
The biggest thing that the winch manufactures rely on is the fact that 12 volt dc winches rarely ever operate at their rated capacity as in order to do that you need to be on the first layer of the drum and have adequate electrical power available to get 100 percent out of the motor. Not that it can't happen the reality is that it just does not occur that often in the field.
No one is or should be saying to disregard any strength ratings with impunity. It is about education and understanding. One should not call for strict adherence of overhead lifting WLLs to a device or appliance to be used with a winch and only use those on one side of the equation.
If you are going to apply a overhead WLL with a given safety factor to a hook, then you have to do the same to the line and the winch. The issue is parity and the understanding that there are different ways of rating how much load something can handle and if you are going to use them, then you should use them across the board.
It is lopsided to hold a hook or shackle to overhead lifting standards of 5-1 if you are using it on a steel cable that has slightly more than a 1-1 safety factor. The standard steel cable is 5/16" with a breaking strength of 9800 lbs. and is frequently supplied on 9500 lb. rated winches. The standard anchor shackle is from the overhead lifting industry with a safety factor of 5-1 and a rated WLL of 4 3/4 tons which is 9500 lbs. Someone, somewhere, picked a shackle size based on a comparison of those two numbers and bam, it became accepted as the standard with no understanding of how lopsided the two ratings are and why they are the way they are. At no point should something breaking at 9800 lbs. dictate that anything else used with it need a breaking strength of 47,500 lbs. It just makes no sense and it is too lopsided to be sensible when that starts to dictate ratings of the rest of the gear used.
You bring up a point that really needs to be understood. Why do the companies we are supposed to be able to trust build a winch with a 9500 to 10,000 lb. rated pulling capacity supply a cable that is rated at 9800 lb. breaking strength? How does that design factor apply? What is it they know that we don't? Why can they get away with such a small difference in rated pull design factor versus the design factor of the line's rated breaking strength and the incidence rate of that being a problem is so low as to be statistically unaccountable?
You've been around long enough to know that the hook in question was the standard hook Warn supplied on all of their 5/16" lines. Why did they do that and how could they have possibly gotten away with a hook with a 3/8" pin through the clevis and no thimble to protect the minimum radius of the cable to prevent damage there? We are supposed to trust them to know, so what do they know that we don't? It was obviously determined somehow that it would work and not endanger the user and subject Warn to the liability of it not working, so what do they know?
That answer determines the suitability of the rest of the ratings and the parity thereof, so, what do they know that we don't?
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I hadn't read your post before I replied to his, but that right there is what they know. It has been posted and gone over many times but it is almost impossible to use a winch at its rated capacity. The likelihood of anyone breaking either the line or the very low rated steel hook during normal use is statistically zero. The circumstances are so specific with narrow parameters that it is nearly impossible to duplicate them in the field during a recovery when you consider that there has to be a minimum number of wraps on the drum before you can load the line to the capacity of the winch.
You need to have all the line out but 5 wraps on the drum. You need a good electrical system. You need a load equivalent to something more than the capacity of the winch. Then you need the line to be able to be tensioned fully to remove the stretch while it is still on the first layer.
Once that line hops up to make the second layer, the pulling power drops by an average of 20% or 1/5th.
Our egos are what causes the problem along with the reluctance to understand that we didn't get what we paid for. We all want to believe that every time we hit the in button on our remotes, our manly winches are throwing 10,000 lbs. of pull at the problem and by god we are going to show the world who is boss. The reality is far different.
OP
Just a question a little off topic but when you use a snatch block it doubles the power of the winch. Does it also double the load on the cable or rope ? In other words my 8,000 winch can now pull 16,000 lbs but is the line under the 8 or 16 load
The use of a snatch block only (in a perfect world without taking into account friction losses etc.) doubles the pulling force of the winch when rigged a certain way.
In this case, the anchor shackle has to be hooked to the vehicle with the winch. Each line has the same load so they are added together to arrive at the total force being developed.
I'd like to see the clamps they used on the wire rope.
But yes, the WLL should be cast into the hook. That one is just a farmer/hardware store hook. Also, you must have a thimble. The strain on the cable is the weak link right now. And how are the wire rope clamps connected.
But first, you need to cut off the loop thru the hook, get a rated hook, use a thimble, and install 3 clamps correctly.,
But yes, the WLL should be cast into the hook. That one is just a farmer/hardware store hook. Also, you must have a thimble. The strain on the cable is the weak link right now. And how are the wire rope clamps connected.
But first, you need to cut off the loop thru the hook, get a rated hook, use a thimble, and install 3 clamps correctly.,
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OP
Thanks for the great illustration as I now know what my recovery equipment needs to be.
I just checked that my Warn snatch block 19,000 #, ARB tree saver is 26,000 # and my Bubba Rope soft shackle is rated at 32,000 # breaking strength. So I feel very comfortable that my equipment is up to the task.
A good way to remember correct wire rope clamp installation is: 'Never Saddle A Dead Horse'. The saddle should always be on the live side of the wire rope. http://www.fdlake.com/wrclips.html
In case you didn't get your answer that hook is fine with the 3/8" or 5/16" steel line that is on the winch. The line is weaker and should give before that hook. I think I've heard @mrblaine say before the weakest link is your primary concern.
If that isn't correct I'm sure somebody will raise a flag but I'm pretty sure that is the answer. I'm not saying the hook is great or that you should use it or anything, just that I don't see it as an issue by itself which I think was the original question.
If that isn't correct I'm sure somebody will raise a flag but I'm pretty sure that is the answer. I'm not saying the hook is great or that you should use it or anything, just that I don't see it as an issue by itself which I think was the original question.
I can't answer your hook question but seeing rust eating into your cable, I would replace the cable just to be safe.
OP
It honestly probably won't even get used before I order some synthetic for it. It does look worse in the pics than in person though. A little scotch brite cleans it right up.
the mnemonic goes like this: put your nuts on the saddle and never saddle a dead horse.
these fist grips are a little more expensive but you dont have to worry which way you installed it
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