So How Terrible Are The 05-06 Model Years, Really?

[mrblaine]

Pretty sure the hinge change was earlier, maybe 03. I don't know that they're any crappier though...stamped steel instead of aluminum, but I think they're easier to remove since they use hex bolts and there's no dissimilar metals involved.

Pretty sure they are only 05-06 for the stamped steel versions. I have a brain tickle with regard to the normal TJ and TJ Unlimited and a difference there. I know the 03-04 TJ both have the cast hinges, what I don't recall is if the 04 TJ Unlimited does. I'm 99.9% sure they are cast, but I'll have to check the 04 today.

 

[g.hayduke]

this thread has made me wonder if the OP is trying to convince himself his is going to be ok

No convincing needed. I did enough pre-purchase research to know I wanted a LJR with a manual transmission. That is what I got like 5 years ago and nothing since has caused me to second guess that decision. I have what I want/need for my type of use. No regrets. I really can't think of anything I would prefer to own within the wrangler family. The few tradeoffs to get this configuration were and are a small price to pay in my judgement for the utility and capability provided.

My goal with this thread was not to convince me of anything. I was motivated by the constant and, IMO, unwarranted trashing of the 05-06 TJs and the associated misinformation. I know a lot of folks, like me, do a lot of research on forums like this before making a purchase, as I did. There are certain folks on any given forum who tend to have more weight given to their opinions on things. On this particular forum, one of the most respected members is also a primary source of negative shade thrown at the 05-06 TJs. I think that is likely scaring people away from some great purchase opportunities.

I know my Jeep well enough at this point that I don't expect any surprise failures. If it ever leaves me stranded, I might change my opinion. But in my experience, a huge majority of potential failures are easily anticipated and preemptively avoided which is how I try to operate.

I am still curious on 2 questions though. Maybe I just missed the answers (as opposed to guesses/assumptions) on these questions.

Is the fuel tank check valve issue only on the 05-06 models?

Do manual transmission PCMs on the 05-06 models fail noticeably more frequently than PCMs of other years? How likely is a manual trans PCM failure on the 05-06 TJs?

Otherwise, pending these 2 questions, I think the list in my original post may be the actual list of unique 05-06 issues. Not so bad IMO. To me, definitely worth the price of admission.

 

[Apparition]

No convincing needed. I did enough pre-purchase research to know I wanted a LJR with a manual transmission. That is what I got like 5 years ago and nothing since has caused me to second guess that decision. I have what I want/need for my type of use. No regrets. I really can't think of anything I would prefer to own within the wrangler family. The few tradeoffs to get this configuration were and are a small price to pay in my judgement for the utility and capability provided.

My goal with this thread was not to convince me of anything. I was motivated by the constant and, IMO, unwarranted trashing of the 05-06 TJs and the associated misinformation. I know a lot of folks, like me, do a lot of research on forums like this before making a purchase, as I did. There are certain folks on any given forum who tend to have more weight given to their opinions on things. On this particular forum, one of the most respected members is also a primary source of negative shade thrown at the 05-06 TJs. I think that is likely scaring people away from some great purchase opportunities.

I know my Jeep well enough at this point that I don't expect any surprise failures. If it ever leaves me stranded, I might change my opinion. But in my experience, a huge majority of potential failures are easily anticipated and preemptively avoided which is how I try to operate.

I am still curious on 2 questions though. Maybe I just missed the answers (as opposed to guesses/assumptions) on these questions.

Is the fuel tank check valve issue only on the 05-06 models?

Do manual transmission PCMs on the 05-06 models fail noticeably more frequently than PCMs of other years? How likely is a manual trans PCM failure on the 05-06 TJs?

Otherwise, pending these 2 questions, I think the list in my original post may be the actual list of unique 05-06 issues. Not so bad IMO. To me, definitely worth the price of admission.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Pretty sure they are only 05-06 for the stamped steel versions. I have a brain tickle with regard to the normal TJ and TJ Unlimited and a difference there. I know the 03-04 TJ both have the cast hinges, what I don't recall is if the 04 TJ Unlimited does. I'm 99.9% sure they are cast, but I'll have to check the 04 today.

You'd know better than I. I'm pretty...intimate with early TJ and late LJ but not much contact with the ones in the middle. I have the model refreshes characterized in my mind a certain way that made tailgate hinges fit more with 03 but that doesn't mean I'm right.

Basically the changes in 2000, 2001, 2003 were all various tech improvements and some cosmetic updates while 2005 was likely "value engineering" by introducing a bunch of Mercedes parts and subsystems to cut down on the number of parts bins.

 

[mrblaine]

Ah, forgot about the Comanche.



My HP30 had the 80's knuckles on it, pretty sure those didn't have shims either so the issue probably goes back all the way to '84.

No, earlier than 90-91 had a different knuckle with a bolt on caliper saddle.

 

[mrblaine]

German electronics aren't generally well regarded, although Telefunken made great radios back in the day. If you want good electronics, buy Japanese.

Did you answer my question about knowing the difference between Bin quality?

 

[freedom_in_4low]

No, earlier than 90-91 had a different knuckle with a bolt on caliper saddle.

I know but did it have shims or is it still bare and subject to divots? I don't remember the one I took off my hp30 having shims but it was 3 years ago.

 

[mrblaine]

I know but did it have shims or is it still bare and subject to divots? I don't remember the one I took off my hp30 having shims but it was 3 years ago.

I've only seen a few handfuls. I don't recall shims or divots.

 

[g.hayduke]

One other pending question.

Are the 05-06 TJs significantly more prone to evap problems? And, if so, what specifically within the evap system causes the failure. Is the solution straightforward?

I've only had codes twice, when I bought it (85K miles) because of the OPDA, and when an O2 sensor went bad at 110K miles. Otherwise, code-free for 5+ years.

Oh, I did have evap codes once but I don't really count that since it was caused by me melting the shit out of stuff on top of my gas tank.

 

[AndyG]

No convincing needed. I did enough pre-purchase research to know I wanted a LJR with a manual transmission. That is what I got like 5 years ago and nothing since has caused me to second guess that decision. I have what I want/need for my type of use. No regrets. I really can't think of anything I would prefer to own within the wrangler family. The few tradeoffs to get this configuration were and are a small price to pay in my judgement for the utility and capability provided.

My goal with this thread was not to convince me of anything. I was motivated by the constant and, IMO, unwarranted trashing of the 05-06 TJs and the associated misinformation. I know a lot of folks, like me, do a lot of research on forums like this before making a purchase, as I did. There are certain folks on any given forum who tend to have more weight given to their opinions on things. On this particular forum, one of the most respected members is also a primary source of negative shade thrown at the 05-06 TJs. I think that is likely scaring people away from some great purchase opportunities.

I know my Jeep well enough at this point that I don't expect any surprise failures. If it ever leaves me stranded, I might change my opinion. But in my experience, a huge majority of potential failures are easily anticipated and preemptively avoided which is how I try to operate.

I am still curious on 2 questions though. Maybe I just missed the answers (as opposed to guesses/assumptions) on these questions.

Is the fuel tank check valve issue only on the 05-06 models?

Do manual transmission PCMs on the 05-06 models fail noticeably more frequently than PCMs of other years? How likely is a manual trans PCM failure on the 05-06 TJs?

Otherwise, pending these 2 questions, I think the list in my original post may be the actual list of unique 05-06 issues. Not so bad IMO. To me, definitely worth the price of admission.

@Wranglerfix should know also does any one know the LJ manual production numbers? That needs to be factored in to his sales ratio.

Even if it fails the values are so good you are always ahead.

 

[Zorba]

Did you answer my question about knowing the difference between Bin quality?

Nope

 

[mrblaine]

Nope

This goes back to your BS about sensors and why they need to run such a narrow range of quality. When LED's are manufactured, they are tested to adherence to the design spec. The ones that meet it, go into the highest tier or Bin. At each succeeding lower level of performance which includes brightness and color, they drop in Bin number.

The exact same thing is done when they make sensors for the vehicle control systems. They build a batch of sensors, they run them on a tester that gives them an exact number for adherence to the design spec. The ones that meet it, go to Mopar, the ones that don't quite make it go into a bin for the aftermarket. Depending on what the vendor wants to pay for the sensor determines roughly how close it will be to what Mopar requires. This is nothing new or unique, you can go to YouTube and look up How It's Made and select oil pressure sensors to see the process. It isn't hard to extrapolate the rest.

Essentially, the sensor issue has exactly zero to do with Mopar. In fact with your love of highly refined and well engineered crap, you should be lauding them for designing such tight tolerances into something.

 

[Wranglerfix]

@g.hayduke There are two main faults on an manual pcm. All o2 sensors showing bad when good and stalling while driving. Occasionally you can lose cluster function as well.

The failure rate is 100% and they are not repairable no matter what anyone online says.

The pcms are encapsulated with a gelled coating and then slow roasted on the firewall. Opening a manual pcm is like trying to get gum off of your shoes.

 

[Dr. Internet]

This goes back to your BS about sensors and why they need to run such a narrow range of quality. When LED's are manufactured, they are tested to adherence to the design spec. The ones that meet it, go into the highest tier or Bin. At each succeeding lower level of performance which includes brightness and color, they drop in Bin number.

The exact same thing is done when they make sensors for the vehicle control systems. They build a batch of sensors, they run them on a tester that gives them an exact number for adherence to the design spec. The ones that meet it, go to Mopar, the ones that don't quite make it go into a bin for the aftermarket. Depending on what the vendor wants to pay for the sensor determines roughly how close it will be to what Mopar requires. This is nothing new or unique, you can go to YouTube and look up How It's Made and select oil pressure sensors to see the process. It isn't hard to extrapolate the rest.

Essentially, the sensor issue has exactly zero to do with Mopar. In fact with your love of highly refined and well engineered crap, you should be lauding them for designing such tight tolerances into something.

The electronic components manufacturing industry has been doing this for resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes, and transistors since at least 1970. the best go into the Mil-Spec bin, then the 1%, 5%, 10%, and 20% bins. When I was building stuff we bought the 20% because is was (markedly) cheaper. We found that we spent more money in testing and tuning that we were saving, so we went to 1% and post assembly time dropped by 90%. Something they don't teach a lot of in engineering school is component tolerances and what they mean in a production environment.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Only evap code I've ever had was when i drove away from the gas pump with my cap still sitting on the fender flare and didn't notice for two days. The replacement I bought had a tether.

And that was on my 99.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

The electronic components manufacturing industry has been doing this for resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes, and transistors since at least 1970. the best go into the Mil-Spec bin, then the 1%, 5%, 10%, and 20% bins. When I was building stuff we bought the 20% because is was (markedly) cheaper. We found that we spent more money in testing and tuning that we were saving, so we went to 1% and post assembly time dropped by 90%. Something they don't teach a lot of in engineering school is component tolerances and what they mean in a production environment.

All that is true, but I think Zorbas argument is that other manufacturers can handle an aftermarket sensor that didn't make it into the "OEM" bin without constantly throwing CELs.

Having worked behind the parts store counter, I tend to agree. At least back in the TJ era, we had dozens of sensors go out the door every day and I can't recall ever having a sensor come back as defective, which any reasonable person would do if they got a sensor and it still threw a cel.

 

[Superjay5]

Pretty sure they are only 05-06 for the stamped steel versions. I have a brain tickle with regard to the normal TJ and TJ Unlimited and a difference there. I know the 03-04 TJ both have the cast hinges, what I don't recall is if the 04 TJ Unlimited does. I'm 99.9% sure they are cast, but I'll have to check the 04 today.

My 04 TJ is the cast hinges…

 

[mrblaine]

My 04 TJ is the cast hinges…

I know that part. What I'm not 100% sure of is if the 04 Unlimited still has them.

 

[mrblaine]

The electronic components manufacturing industry has been doing this for resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes, and transistors since at least 1970. the best go into the Mil-Spec bin, then the 1%, 5%, 10%, and 20% bins. When I was building stuff we bought the 20% because is was (markedly) cheaper. We found that we spent more money in testing and tuning that we were saving, so we went to 1% and post assembly time dropped by 90%. Something they don't teach a lot of in engineering school is component tolerances and what they mean in a production environment.

Yep, also why we wound up with an overwhelming crapton of knock-off LED light bars after the good companies like Rigid etc. put in the time and money to figure them out. The average consumer looks at the 150 dollar version of the original 2000 dollar light bar and does NOT give a single crap as to which one is using the 1% emitters and which one is using the 30% emitters or why that affects cost. All they want to know is turn it on, light comes out, good enough.

 

[Apparition]

Yep, also why we wound up with an overwhelming crapton of knock-off LED light bars after the good companies like Rigid etc. put in the time and money to figure them out. The average consumer looks at the 150 dollar version of the original 2000 dollar light bar and does NOT give a single crap as to which one is using the 1% emitters and which one is using the 30% emitters or why that affects cost. All they want to know is turn it on, light comes out, good enough.

They all look the same at the mall.