Steering wander and front axle movement

[AndyG]

Not trying to take away from the OP’s thread but let me break it down for you for a second. Death wobble is due to loose components - primary being the track bar. If you have a buddy shimmy the steering wheel back and forth while in park and engine off you’ll be able to see what components have play. Bumpsteer is due to your dropped pitman arm and the inverted T steering your currently running instead of the OEM Jeep steering of inverted Y. Wandering/tracking/return to center are affect by three things, loose components (death wobble also a symptom), not enough caster, or not enough toe-in. Check the toe by measuring the front of your tires across and the rear of your tires across and comparing the numbers. There’s threads on here for setting toe. Check your caster/pinion angles with an angle finder pressed against the driveshaft and input yoke to the differential. Loose components can be checked by the method I laid out above with your buddy, or by visually inspecting bushing for cracking and/or play. Feel free to PM me if you want some help with your numbers!

That’s a very good post here ....ought to be in a manual.

 

[MarkAlan]

I can tell you for sure if you have a 5 inch lift without adjustable control arms you do not have enough caster. Dump the dropped pitman arm anget adjustable arms.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

That’s a very good post here ....ought to be in a manual.

True though he left out that imperfectly balanced tires are a common cause/trigger for DW too. The very worst DW I ever had was on my previous TJ. It was still near new with the stock suspension, the front-end was still tight, but one of the front tires had thrown a weight. The resulting DW was unbelievably VIOLENT. Getting that front tire rebalanced cured the DW. A spinning tire is what provides the energy required for DW to take place. A spinning unbalanced tire just adds even more energy. Something loose like a track bar just makes it easier for DW happen.

 

[AndyG]

True though he left out that imperfectly balanced tires are a common cause/trigger for DW too. The very worst DW I ever had was on my previous TJ. It was still near new with the stock suspension, the front-end was still tight, but one of the front tires had thrown a weight. The resulting DW was unbelievably VIOLENT. Getting that front tire rebalanced cured the DW. A spinning tire is what provides the energy required for DW to take place. A spinning unbalanced tire just adds even more energy. Something loose like a track bar just makes it easier for DW happen.

Hey Jerry... I've got something going on on the front of the mind and I think it's death wobble looking for a place to happen

I have an adjustable track bar on the front and the mount on the passenger side seems to have a lot of movement where the bolt goes through the track bar.

it looks like that they used the stock diameter bolt and the track bar itself would require a larger diameter bolt and it's moving on the bolt.

tell me if that makes sense and if it's pretty typical for an stock track bar mount to be drilled to accommodate a larger diameter bolt to fit into the larger aftermarket adjustable track bar.

I am amazed it's driving as good as it does.. what made me catch it was a post that you had about axle movement being caused by track bars not being tight enough.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

True though he left out that imperfectly balanced tires are a common cause/trigger for DW too. The very worst DW I ever had was on my previous TJ. It was still near new with the stock suspension, the front-end was still tight, but one of the front tires had thrown a weight. The resulting DW was unbelievably VIOLENT. Getting that front tire rebalanced cured the DW. A spinning tire is what provides the energy required for DW to take place. A spinning unbalanced tire just adds even more energy. Something loose like a track bar just makes it easier for DW happen.

Should have included that as well, mentioned it in the private conversation we had earlier today.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

Hey Jerry... I've got something going on on the front of the mind and I think it's death wobble looking for a place to happen

I have an adjustable track bar on the front and the mount on the passenger side seems to have a lot of movement where the bolt goes through the track bar.

it looks like that they used the stock diameter bolt and the track bar itself would require a larger diameter bolt and it's moving on the bolt.

tell me if that makes sense and if it's pretty typical for an stock track bar mount to be drilled to accommodate a larger diameter bolt to fit into the larger aftermarket adjustable track bar.

I am amazed it's driving as good as it does.. what made me catch it was a post that you had about axle movement being caused by track bars not being tight enough.

If it helps to put your mind at ease, drill it out to the diameter of your track bar and put a larger grade 8 bolt through the hole. However, clamping force is what prevents movement in fasteners such a these. Properly torquing the track bar should be fine unless you actually begin to experience death wobble. It is commmon to drill this out as in the Currie track bar I run. However this requires new hardware.

 

[AndyG]

If it helps to put your mind at ease, drill it out to the diameter of your track bar and put a larger grade 8 bolt through the hole. However, clamping force is what prevents movement in fasteners such a these. Properly torquing the track bar should be fine unless you actually begin to experience death wobble. It is commmon to drill this out as in the Currie track bar I run. However this requires new hardware.

Thanks....it looks like I need to do that , the track bar moves left to right there about 3/16 both ways , so it’s got 3/8 total movement or more . Maybe the bushing has that much give , but it seems like the bolt is small....I’ll scope it out. Thank you man.

 

[ryman]

That your axle moves left/right in response to turning your steering wheel right/left indicates a problem with the track bar, perhaps the bushings in the track bar have worn out. The track bar is 100% responsible for keeping your axle held firmly and centered as your steering wheel is turned left/right.

The control arms would have nothing to do with that particular problem.

Hello,
I have a 2000 that has tj and the axle moves sideways while cranking the wheel. I have a brand new track bar. It doesn’t have movement. The bushing at the axle is good and snug. My ball joints are all tight. I see the motion most pronounced at the upper control arm axle side. Where would you look next? I can get dial indicators to monitor movement but I don’t know where to look. Thanks for any suggestions. I really don’t want to have to sell the Jeep.

 

[LONGJP2]

the axle moves sideways while cranking the wheel. I have a brand new track bar. It doesn’t have movement.

One can't move without the other.
Recheck your trackbar mounts.

Control arm bushings don't prevent the axle from moving side to side.

 

[ryman]

One can't move without the other.
Recheck your trackbar mounts.

Control arm bushings don't prevent the axle from moving side to side.

My camera is sitting on the floor, engine on, wheels on the ground, moving the steering back and forth. The track bar to axle doesn’t show movement but the axle is moving. I am so confused. Thanks for any help or ideas.

 

[ryman]

View attachment 388161
My camera is sitting on the floor, engine on, wheels on the ground, moving the steering back and forth. The track bar to axle doesn’t show movement but the axle is moving. I am so confused. Thanks for any help or ideas.

Here is the other side of the track bar. Is it possible just frame flex? Does it need some gusset to stiffen it?

 

[LONGJP2]

If your axle and trackbar are moving together (no play), it's probably just the way the tires are grabbing the floor.
Do you have offset wheels or spacers?

 

[ryman]

If your axle and trackbar are moving together (no play), it's probably just the way the tires are grabbing the floor.
Do you have offset wheels or spacers?

Hi,
No wheel offset or spacer. Factory 15” rim with 31” tire.
Should I lift the front end and repeat the video?
I had to do a plate repair on the front end behind the steering gear. I am questioning if I need a gusset on the outside of the frame behind the steering gear to resist deflection of the frame. It appears in the video the frame is being pushed and pulled by the steering gear movement.
The only other idea is a steering gear brace that ties to the passenger side frame. I am not sure that will provide enough strength.

Thank you for your time. This thing makes me feel crazy!!!

 

[ryman]

Hi,
No wheel offset or spacer. Factory 15” rim with 31” tire.
Should I lift the front end and repeat the video?
I had to do a plate repair on the front end behind the steering gear. I am questioning if I need a gusset on the outside of the frame behind the steering gear to resist deflection of the frame. It appears in the video the frame is being pushed and pulled by the steering gear movement.
The only other idea is a steering gear brace that ties to the passenger side frame. I am not sure that will provide enough strength.

Thank you for your time. This thing makes me feel crazy!!!

Any other ideas? Sell the Jeep?

 

[LONGJP2]

I had to do a plate repair on the front end behind the steering gear.

Are there other areas where the frame is questionable?

 

[ryman]

I did a custom taboo repair on the front frame where the gear box attaches.
I put a mag bas on the frame where the three bolts hold the steering gear. The other side has a dial indicator. When I crank the wheel, engine on, tires on the ground, I measure .03” movement. I am guessing the frame should move .000. Any ideas?