That lifter knock issue

[Iowa Country Boy]

I’m experiencing that typical top end lifter noise. Jeep has 200,000 miles on it.

The noise goes away when engine starts to get up to temperature.

So if I just replace push rods and rocker arms assuming they are worn allowing too much clearance is that likely to solve the startup lifter noise…

Or is it more likely the lifters themselves are the issue…

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[JHammett]

I have spent hours reading up on threads and people's experience with this same issue and am pretty much just letting mine tick until it does not tick anymore and then just rebuild or swap the entire thing.

I was thinking about just replacing push rods or rockers, but I found a few instances where people did this and it did not or at least long term solve the ticking, other replaced the timing chain, other the flex plate with little success. Others get results from additives (I did this and it was quite for a few days and then back to normal).

A few people on these threads even reported driving 100k miles with the tick.

There are a lot of threads on this!

 

[Iowa Country Boy]

I have spent hours reading up on threads and people's experience with this same issue and am pretty much just letting mine tick until it does not tick anymore and then just rebuild or swap the entire thing.

I was thinking about just replacing push rods or rockers, but I found a few instances where people did this and it did not or at least long term solve the ticking, other replaced the timing chain, other the flex plate with little success. Others get results from additives (I did this and it was quite for a few days and then back to normal).

There are a lot of threads on this!

 

[Iowa Country Boy]

Yes I’ve read many of the posts too.

I guess I’m just wondering if there is a general consensus on the likelihood that just replacing rockers and pushrods resolves the start up tick.

Perhaps I need to adopt your idea and ignore it till it becomes more then just a start up tick.

 

[Claybirdd]

Mine just went away on its own one day. 98,000 miles

 

[ColoJeep]

Yes I’ve read many of the posts too.

I guess I’m just wondering if there is a general consensus on the likelihood that just replacing rockers and pushrods resolves the start up tick.

Perhaps I need to adopt your idea and ignore it till it becomes more then just a start up tick.

I doubt replacing the rockers and pushrods will do anything to stop a lifter tick.
Try this , the next time you start the Jeep and it starts ticking , shut it off wait 5 seconds and restart. Chances are it won't tick and kinda points to a lifter issue.
Hope you solve your issue , but on an AMC 6 banger you're pulling the head to get to the lifters.

 

[JHammett]

From my second-hand (since I decided not to do any of the potential repair options) knowledge from the threads I have read, the consensus seems to be a sticky lifter and if you get to replacing lifters, you might as well rebuild the engine...

I am sure some others can provide their experiences!

I doubt replacing the rockers and pushrods will do anything to stop a lifter tick.
Try this , the next time you start the Jeep and it starts ticking , shut it off wait 5 seconds and restart. Chances are it won't tick and kinda points to a lifter issue.
Hope you solve your issue , but on an AMC 6 banger you're pulling the head to get to the lifters.

Exactly. That is why I decided to let it tick until it breaks a piston skirt, bends a rod or spins a bearing, where pulling the head makes sense.

 

[MikeE024]

I significantly reduced the occurrence of start-up lifter tick by adding marvel mystery oil.

I recently switched to Redline 5w30 to handle the extra heat from the turbo, and the tick immediately came back because I didn't add MMO.

I may add MMO and see how things go. Until then, I'm back to reducing the start-up tick by shutting the engine off when it ticks to let the oil pressure build-up with the lifters. I then restart the engine once or twice and move on tick free.

I considered fixing the lifter issue, but it makes more sense imo to just hold off for a rebuild. I feel the same about changing the exhaust manifolds as well.

 

[HornedToad]

I have had this problem in two jeeps. I have tried mmo, rislone, Lucas, and 15w-40 with no luck. On my old Jeep I ended up pulling the head and replacing the camshaft and lifters with oem mopar parts. As expected that engine ran nice and quiet as still does to this day (my dad owns it now). I am gearing up to do the same to my current tj now that I have again exhausted all the easy “solutions.”
The job takes about a day and a half and the notion that you might as well rebuild the engine if you are replacing the lifters is just silly.

 

[MikeE024]

I have had this problem in two jeeps. I have tried mmo, rislone, Lucas, and 15w-40 with no luck.

Lucas and Seafoam didn't help, but MMO did with 10w30 (to my surprise). I'll add it to the 5w30 and see if it helps. If not I'll add it to 10w30 on the next oil change (my guess is that lifter tick is made worst with heavier weight because it would take longer to build pressure, but I'm game to find out the results).

On my old Jeep I ended up pulling the head and replacing the camshaft and lifters with oem mopar parts. As expected that engine ran nice and quiet as still does to this day (my dad owns it now). I am gearing up to do the same to my current tj now that I have again exhausted all the easy “solutions.”

Sounds like a great plan.

The job takes about a day and a half and the notion that you might as well rebuild the engine if you are replacing the lifters is just silly.

Everyone's circumstances are different.

Not everyone (1) is physically capable of safely pulling the head, (2) have a clean & lit space to do the job, (3) or have the knowledge, tools, and skill to do the job in half a day.

In my situation, I've already proven that the tick in my engine can be greatly reduced/solved using MMO. And, it makes little sense to change the camshaft on a 200k mile engine that I've recently turbo'd when I can instead purchase a remanufactured engine for $2400 with a 100k mile warranty when that time comes. I have much higher priorities to handle over things I'd like to do to my Jeep (let alone pull the head when I don't have a clean place to do it and my tools are in a different state).

No one said a rebuild was required, and "it's silly" to judge others for considering going that route when you lack sufficient details to make a valid assessment of folks' situations.

 

[James9100]

This is totally anecdotal but I’ve found that different oil makes a huge difference with the tick.
I’ve now tried Castrol Edge 10w30, Pennzoil YB 10w30, Pennzoil Platinum HM 5w30, Castrol GTX 10w30 (in that order).
Had a good tick with Edge, much better with the PYB, PPHM was really smooth but started a minor RMS leak, and now with the GTX I’m currently running the tick is much more noticeable once again.

I’ve decided that my 4.0L likes Pennzoil.

 

[HornedToad]

No one said a rebuild was required, and "it's silly" to judge others for considering going that route when you lack sufficient details to make a valid assessment of folks' situations.

I never used the word required and post #7 states: "from the threads I have read, the consensus seems to be a sticky lifter and if you get to replacing lifters, you might as well rebuild the engine..."

And so yes--I stand by what I said that if you have a stubborn ticking lifter and your engine is otherwise fine with how it runs, it would be "unnecessary" to shell out the money and time required to fully rebuild it. If I had an engine that was burning oil, had milky oil, rod knock, or smoke coming out of the tailpipe, then it would be a different story.

Mine had 190k on the clock when I pulled the head and all cylinders still had new looking cross hatch marks. The bottom end of 4.0's that are taken care of last nearly indefinitely. This can be attributed to the well supported crankshaft (nearly twice the main bearings compared to a V engine) and the short stroke and big bore (less force against the cylinder walls). If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[MikeE024]

I never used the word required and post #7 states: "from the threads I have read, the consensus seems to be a sticky lifter and if you get to replacing lifters, you might as well rebuild the engine..."

Fair enough.

And so yes--I stand by what I said that if you have a stubborn ticking lifter and your engine is otherwise fine with how it runs, it would be "unnecessary" to shell out the money and time required to fully rebuild it. If I had an engine that was burning oil, had milky oil, rod knock, or smoke coming out of the tailpipe, then it would be a different story.

This makes sense, but how does one know if only the lifters are worthy of being replaced? I assume you do the job and hope for the best (lmk if that's not correct).

Mine had 190k on the clock when I pulled the head and all cylinders still had new looking cross hatch marks. The bottom end of 4.0's that are taken care of last nearly indefinitely. This can be attributed to the well supported crankshaft (nearly twice the main bearings compared to a V engine) and the short stroke and big bore (less force against the cylinder walls). If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Any input on how one would know if the bottom end was taken care of for someone like myself who didn't own the rig until 180k miles? I'm not going to drop the pan and pull bearing caps.

My coolant system had been neglected when I purchased the rig and the engine overheated (past 260*) before I fixed the issue with Mopar parts right after purchasing the rig (the seller accidentally admitted that the rig did the same for him) . The lifter tick started after the first oil change, which I did soon after purchasing the rig. The compression was good when I checked it, but I don't know if the rod bearings are long for the world.

Regarding "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," the opposite of your quote is "don't polish a turd." I need to determine if a partial fix is wise or a fool's errand. While I prefer to not be wasteful, I prefer to "do it right" and move on with my life knowing I'll be good.

 

[TexasTJ2004]

I had a lifter tick. The tick would happen when cold while heating up. At the running temperature 210F it would almost disappear.
What I did is couple of things:
Burned carbon deposits. Used seafoam injected into the throttle.
Then used BG engine cleaner. One can into the oil, run 10 minutes idle at 1200RPM, change oil and filter. Did this 3 times when changing oils/filters.
BG fuel system cleaner- can into the gas tank at 50%, then run normally driving till tank is almost empty, then refill.

No tick today, engine runs like champ.

 

[HornedToad]

This makes sense, but how does one know if only the lifters are worthy of being replaced? I assume you do the job and hope for the best (lmk if that's not correct).

I would only consider replacing them if the ticking lifter seems incurable after trying Marvel Mystery oil, Rislone, Sea Foam, a few different oils of varying thickness, etc. After a two months of trying all those things on my lj and them not working, I decided to finally replace the camshaft and lifters. I would also make sure the sound wasn't an exhaust manifold leak or the camshaft synchronizer (only found on the 00-04's and can also make a ticking noise).

 

[HornedToad]

Any input on how one would know if the bottom end was taken care of for someone like myself who didn't own the rig until 180k miles? I'm not going to drop the pan and pull bearing caps.

I might have a bit too much faith in the 4.0 because assume it's in a good state if it doesn't burn any oil over a full interval and runs smoothly over the whole RPM range.

If you really want to know without taking anything apart get an oil sample and send it in for testing. If there isn't any aluminum or copper alloy then your bottom end bearings are in a good state. And if you don't burn any oil then your cylinders and piston rings are healthy.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that when I did this job (and I plan on doing it again) I also replaced the oil pump with a new Melling unit. I didn't have low oil pressure before but I figured it was a good thing to do since I was in there. I gained roughly 6 psi at any given rpm from that.

 

[MikeE024]

I had a lifter tick. The tick would happen when cold while heating up. At the running temperature 210F it would almost disappear.
What I did is couple of things:
Burned carbon deposits. Used seafoam injected into the throttle.
Then used BG engine cleaner. One can into the oil, run 10 minutes idle at 1200RPM, change oil and filter. Did this 3 times when changing oils/filters.
BG fuel system cleaner- can into the gas tank at 50%, then run normally driving till tank is almost empty, then refill.

No tick today, engine runs like champ.

Super stoked those items fixed you up!

Mine only does it for about 2-5 seconds after a cold start sitting over night.

I seafoamed through the throttle body before three oil changes revving the throttle to whatever RPM the can instructed me to hold it at. Sadly it didn’t help the lifter tick.

Never used the BG fuel system cleaner good to know it helped.

I ran seafoam through the gas and tried leftover bottles of chevron Techron as well to no avail.

 

[MikeE024]

I would only consider replacing them if the ticking lifter seems incurable after trying Marvel Mystery oil, Rislone, Sea Foam, a few different oils of varying thickness, etc. After a two months of trying all those things on my lj and them not working, I decided to finally replace the camshaft and lifters. I would also make sure the sound wasn't an exhaust manifold leak or the camshaft synchronizer (only found on the 00-04's and can also make a ticking noise).

That makes sense. I’m pretty confident i have a lifter tick/knock problem. It happens after sitting overnight.

The always present slight exhaust leak noise is much less pronounced and was verified through a pressurized smoke test.

 

[MikeE024]

I might have a bit too much faith in the 4.0 because assume it's in a good state if it doesn't burn any oil over a full interval and runs smoothly over the whole RPM range.

If you really want to know without taking anything apart get an oil sample and send it in for testing. If there isn't any aluminum or copper alloy then your bottom end bearings are in a good state. And if you don't burn any oil then your cylinders and piston rings are healthy.

Thanks for the oil sample suggestion. I didn’t know about the aluminum being a good indicator and I completely forgot that the copper content will indicate bearing wear. Thanks!

One other thing I forgot to mention is that when I did this job (and I plan on doing it again) I also replaced the oil pump with a new Melling unit. I didn't have low oil pressure before but I figured it was a good thing to do since I was in there. I gained roughly 6 psi at any given rpm from that.

I didn’t replace my pump when installing the new pan with the oil return line bung that Blaine was kind enough to braze in for me. I don’t know if I’m going to regret not changing it…I totally went the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” route during the turbo install (gotta appreciate the irony in that lol).

From what I read, it’s best to go with the standard Melling pump. Is that the unit you went with?

I also forgot to mention that the folks who replaced my freeze plugs (one rusted through) totally mucked up the rear main seal install…and I had to install the engine bc they couldn’t get in installed and tried to blame it on my MML, so I never took it back to them for the RMS leak. Anyhow, the RMS leak is another reason I’ve held off fixing any of these items and considered that maybe a remanufactured engine will make the most sense for me. I don’t have a clean place to work or the free time I used to have.

 

[TexasTJ2004]

Super stoked those items fixed you up!

Mine only does it for about 2-5 seconds after a cold start sitting over night.

I seafoamed through the throttle body before three oil changes revving the throttle to whatever RPM the can instructed me to hold it at. Sadly it didn’t help the lifter tick.

Never used the BG fuel system cleaner good to know it helped.

I ran seafoam through the gas and tried leftover bottles of chevron Techron as well to no avail.

There are two problems with lifters in 4.0, AFAIK - startup problem and runtime problem.
Startup, is when the lifters leaked overnight or over couple of days and then on startup you get this problem.
Runtime is when lifters don’t operate correctly after the initial 10-20 seconds.
After I did all my engine work, I did remove the valve cover to replace the valve gasket. I checked the lifters - basically you check whether there is any slack whatsoever on any of the pushrods. Did not see any.
I am not paid by BG or something, but this thing really work. I know a guy who ran BG in engine oil multiple time to get the compression right, and it worked. Basically it cleans the Carbon in the rings around the piston by this improving the compression. Their stuff really works, this is why most of the garages today use it for engine performance restoration.