You are correct. That is the clamping system developed by Bestop for bikini and safari tops. It was later copied and adopted by many top makers other than Bestop.
The saga of my Rampage (or any other brand) soft top installation:
- Thread starter Moab
- Start date
The original Rampage top was developed by Thor at Viking offroad. I helped him with a few parts of it to get it perfected. He was having them made locally here in SoCal and eventually licensed the design to Rampage to lower the price via economies of scale. Unfortunately he failed to write the contract in such a manner that he retained control over the quality and design aspects and the top has suffered a bit because of it.
As for never being a fan, I'm not, I was offered one for my assistance and declined because I just don't like the look.
Sorry for your troubles. The header with the clamp and bolt is not stock, that's part of the confusion. The stock soft top does indeed wrap around the header and screw to it in several places.What a cluster...whatever you call it.I finally figured out the front windshield header. They made it not to fit in the stock channel in the windshield header. But it wraps around the entire header and then clamps down. Bypassing the actual stock channel in the header altogether. AND you have to fold the plastic tab over once, and roll that under the entire header, to make it fit right.
But now it's so cold (probably upper 50's low 60's. It says to install in 70F or better.) I have a 2-3 inch gap on one side at the base of the window. And the rear window won't zip in past one third of the way. Basically to the first corner. And the door uppers won't go on at all. I need another 2 inches to get those on. So I put the upper windows on the front seats, zipped everything up as much as possible. And turned the heat on high. HAve a timer set for 45 minutes. Maybe that will do the trick. But the back window is halfway open. F me. lol.
Lastly, they did not say you needed those wide black things that go around the back half of the front windows. I don't know what they are called. But now I have this gap between the soft top and the back of the front upper doors. Those are my old door uppers as I'm trying to keep the heat in while I try heating up the top from the inside so I can get it to go on all the way.
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What are these called? I need a pair. And what year range will fit my '99 TJ? And how much do they run used?
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The directions from Rampage (Lund) suck. It shows you having to screw the soft top into the windshield header. Which don't exist on my older stock header. And then when I called and talked to their tech. She had no clue that you had to double over the plastic on the front of the soft top and wrap the top around the entire header instead of just putting it in the channel in the header like it does stock. It is a better fit IMHO. But it would be nice if anyone at Rampage knew this. She actually said "sometimes they fit but sometimes they don't. Because we have these made overseas.".
Further it doesn't say you need those things above. Again I use the term cluster...whatever you call it.
The reason that some have them and some don't is due to the licensing agreement Bestop had with Jeep. Bestop designed the OEM soft top for Jeep with the door surrounds. They were not allowed to produce them or make a top that used them until that agreement expired in about 03 or so. Previous to that, all tops made had to make up their own version of a door surround or get a cease and desist letter from Bestop followed up by more serious deterrents if production continued.
One may wonder how I know such things. When I was helping Thor on the original design of the Rampage top, he designed it to work with the factory door surrounds. He did in fact get that letter with a very small but highly important caveat. They let him know that the agreement with Jeep would be expiring in a few months.
Where are you finding aftermarket surrounds? Used OEM typically go for 100 bucks. I wouldn't mess with aftermarket for that price.
Yes and no. The sunrider option is also available for the TJ so it will share the same door surround with the TJ Unlimited that also has the sunrider. Other than that small detail, you can interchange the two different surrounds on both vehicles.
I knew that Bestop made a Sunrider top for the TJ, but I wasn't aware that Jeep ever offered it from the factory except for the Unlimited.
I'd have to do some more research but I believe the TJ got it first in 03. I seem to recall some Rubi owners showing off.
I almost purchased a new 2006 TJ Rubicon at the end of the TJ production line in 2006, and in the list of equipment, it had dual tops, with the soft top being a sunrider. So yes, Jeep did offer it on the TJ line at one time, albeit near the end of the production of the TJ.
OP
I have the top on (but not the upper door skins). But the bows are not up. I have to wait for a non rainy day to use a heat gun on it. I've been using a heat gun on the door skins. Without any f ups. But I've been careful to keep it more than a foot away and running my hand along behind it to gauge surface temp and that I'm not melting anything.
I've been trying the heat gun for the last half hour. On the upper door skins. Slow even swaths across the fabric with the heat. Gently heating the whole thing up. I'm a good inch away from being able to put them on. I tried pliers with a rubber handle, vice grips, a long screw driver. And nothing works. I'm still an inch away from the second corner going in. I started with the square corner first. I have all the velcro undone and the window unzipped. But that second corner with the pointed edge is killing me. Like I say it's a good inch away from going on. And I don't dare pry any harder than I already have been. Or it's gonna rip.
My next question is what if I put them in the dryer or a hot shower? This is seriously wearing on me. I'm about to try to find an install service that can do this for me. Either that or this top is just to small and doesn't fit. It's ridiculous how tight it is. I wish I hadn't done this on the one rainy week of the year here. Hell. At this point I wish I hadn't done it at all. I know one thing. I won't be taking this particular top off. Unless it's for good. Nothing should be this ill fitting. Even the front had to be wrapped around the entire header instead of in the seam or slot. As the way the fabric pouch is in the front. No other way works right. I'm thinking that's why my bows won't go up. Because the design is using to much fabric up front to wrap around the header. I'll post some pics later.
In the meantime, I'm going to try starting with a different corner. But every tutorial I've seen shows starting with the square corner. Which is hardest to get into. Although the pointy corner is very hard as that part of the frame is quite pointed. And I'm afraid of ripping something.
I've been trying the heat gun for the last half hour. On the upper door skins. Slow even swaths across the fabric with the heat. Gently heating the whole thing up. I'm a good inch away from being able to put them on. I tried pliers with a rubber handle, vice grips, a long screw driver. And nothing works. I'm still an inch away from the second corner going in. I started with the square corner first. I have all the velcro undone and the window unzipped. But that second corner with the pointed edge is killing me. Like I say it's a good inch away from going on. And I don't dare pry any harder than I already have been. Or it's gonna rip.
My next question is what if I put them in the dryer or a hot shower? This is seriously wearing on me. I'm about to try to find an install service that can do this for me. Either that or this top is just to small and doesn't fit. It's ridiculous how tight it is. I wish I hadn't done this on the one rainy week of the year here. Hell. At this point I wish I hadn't done it at all. I know one thing. I won't be taking this particular top off. Unless it's for good. Nothing should be this ill fitting. Even the front had to be wrapped around the entire header instead of in the seam or slot. As the way the fabric pouch is in the front. No other way works right. I'm thinking that's why my bows won't go up. Because the design is using to much fabric up front to wrap around the header. I'll post some pics later.
In the meantime, I'm going to try starting with a different corner. But every tutorial I've seen shows starting with the square corner. Which is hardest to get into. Although the pointy corner is very hard as that part of the frame is quite pointed. And I'm afraid of ripping something.
OP
Please tell me you can adapt the LJ model to the TJ by cutting that off? I just bought an LJ surround set off ebay and the guy said it was the same as TJ. Or maybe it's a TJ that he thought would fit both. I don't know.
I'm pretty sure, if you are referring to the bracket for the sunrider pivot, that it bolts on, or rivets, or some such way on the oem surround, and will come off. I purchased an aftermarket hardware set for my current TJR from Bestop (PO left the oem top on rolled up behind the rear seat, since purchasing new, but she lost all the non-attached hardware and windows), and now all theirs have the pivot bracket, and it just unbolts. I took those off because I don't have the sunrider top on my TJR, it's the regular oem soft top.
OP
FOr some reason I couldn't see this post until now. Thank you.
Any ideas mrblaine on how to deal with this install? I did wrap the front of the top around the entire header. Versus placing the lip into the slot. As there was to much fabric. And it appears to be made to wrap around the header. At least the header I have with the bolts in the clamps. Am I using the wrong header maybe? I mean I have the top on but the bows are not expanded all the way. As the top is to tight right now in the cold. Or so I am assuming. I won't know until I get a non rainy day and can put the heat gun to it.
The upper door skins are another matter. Pretty easy to see how those go on. But damn these are tight. Like I said even with the heat gun. I'm an inch away - with a prying tool - to it being able to go into the sharp corner.
EDIT - My header does not have holes to drill anything into it. The soft tops plastic lip has holes. But again, my header does not. You can either put the top front lip into the channel of the header or you can wrap the front of the top around the entire header. There is a pocket of fabric at the front to accommodate the header. And it's the exact size of the entire header - not just the slot part. If that makes sense. If you place the plastic strip into the slot on the header your left with a big poofy piece of fabric that sticks up. SO it really is designed to go around the entire header. Or maybe a header fatter around than mine. Either way I think the lack of my bows going into place are because of the cold here. But we'll see.
OP
Here are pics of where I'm at. First you can see how the top ends up on the header after wrapping it around the entire thing. You can see that it's a pouch of fabric up front. For either a much larger header or to be wrapped around it period.
The other side needs to be better seated around the header. I had to overlap the plastic strip one time and then wrap it around the header to get it to fit correctly up front.
This is it zipped and clamped on. Without the bows being fully extended. My next attempt is going to be heating the ridgeline up with a heat gun. And trying to get the middle bow up all the way and into the velcro.
Below is how close the middle bow is to being centered and in it's velcro sleeve. (If you notice the black foam on the rear bow that is lying down. I had to cut that off the middle bow. As there was no way the middle bow was going up with it in place. And the velcro on the soft top wasn't reaching all the way around the foam and the bow. Only the bow. So I cut it off. I can still slip some in there later. But I think using the velcro sections on the soft top will better hold it in place. Than if it was just riding loose with the foam on it.)
The back bow is not up at all yet. It will go about 3/4 of the way up. But then stops as the top is not loose enough for it to go all the way up. I may try cutting the foam off it too. As I think the velcro fittings on the soft top don't go all the way around the foam and the bow. Just the bow.
Again, I'm going to try to use heat to get it to loosen up. And hopefully extend the bows out all the way. Ignore the mop handle. That's just to keep water from pooling up on top. I tried just using that heater set at 80f to it to loosen. But at that time the gaps were to big and alot of the hot air just went out the gaps. Now that it's zipped up. The only gaps are where the surrounds should be. So maybe if it doesn't rain tomorrow. I can heat up the inside and hit the outside with the heat gun.
Rampages "how to install instructions" are for crap. No help at all. And their website has no instructions or videos. And the header they show in their black and white "mimeographed" instructions is not the header I have.
I'll get this on and make it work if it kills me. But I must say Rampage or the company that owns them Lund is of little to no help. Their tech support sounds like this is an every half hour occurrence. Getting calls about how to install these. And they have few answers. Either that or I just have such an early example TJ that everything is a little off. That and I thought I understood Mrblaine say I had a Bestop header. But maybe I was confusing that with surrounds.
Below is one of my upper door skins. You can see where i've started with the square corner first. And then trying to get the pointed or front bottom corner installed next. Even heated I'm a good inch off. And it has to seat kind of deep into the corner pocket. I think I'm going to soak them in complete hot water in the bath. And see if they will go on then.
The other side needs to be better seated around the header. I had to overlap the plastic strip one time and then wrap it around the header to get it to fit correctly up front.
This is it zipped and clamped on. Without the bows being fully extended. My next attempt is going to be heating the ridgeline up with a heat gun. And trying to get the middle bow up all the way and into the velcro.
Below is how close the middle bow is to being centered and in it's velcro sleeve. (If you notice the black foam on the rear bow that is lying down. I had to cut that off the middle bow. As there was no way the middle bow was going up with it in place. And the velcro on the soft top wasn't reaching all the way around the foam and the bow. Only the bow. So I cut it off. I can still slip some in there later. But I think using the velcro sections on the soft top will better hold it in place. Than if it was just riding loose with the foam on it.)
The back bow is not up at all yet. It will go about 3/4 of the way up. But then stops as the top is not loose enough for it to go all the way up. I may try cutting the foam off it too. As I think the velcro fittings on the soft top don't go all the way around the foam and the bow. Just the bow.
Again, I'm going to try to use heat to get it to loosen up. And hopefully extend the bows out all the way. Ignore the mop handle. That's just to keep water from pooling up on top. I tried just using that heater set at 80f to it to loosen. But at that time the gaps were to big and alot of the hot air just went out the gaps. Now that it's zipped up. The only gaps are where the surrounds should be. So maybe if it doesn't rain tomorrow. I can heat up the inside and hit the outside with the heat gun.
Rampages "how to install instructions" are for crap. No help at all. And their website has no instructions or videos. And the header they show in their black and white "mimeographed" instructions is not the header I have.
I'll get this on and make it work if it kills me. But I must say Rampage or the company that owns them Lund is of little to no help. Their tech support sounds like this is an every half hour occurrence. Getting calls about how to install these. And they have few answers. Either that or I just have such an early example TJ that everything is a little off. That and I thought I understood Mrblaine say I had a Bestop header. But maybe I was confusing that with surrounds.
Below is one of my upper door skins. You can see where i've started with the square corner first. And then trying to get the pointed or front bottom corner installed next. Even heated I'm a good inch off. And it has to seat kind of deep into the corner pocket. I think I'm going to soak them in complete hot water in the bath. And see if they will go on then.
Man, I feel your pain. That top around the header, and the bow locations look like crap. Did you happen to take a photo of the header prior to installing the fabric?
It's been some years since I did an upper door skin, but are you certain it wouldn't be easier to start with the pointed end first? I can't exactly remember what I did, but it seems more doable to get that larger corner on last...
It's been some years since I did an upper door skin, but are you certain it wouldn't be easier to start with the pointed end first? I can't exactly remember what I did, but it seems more doable to get that larger corner on last...
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OP
It looked better on the Jeep when the bows were up and there was a two inch gap along the bottom of one window. But getting that bottom of the window into the slot in the body. Was alot harder than trying to get the bows up. AT least on the bows you can push it into place. (Once it's flexible enough from heat.) Trying to get that plastic to go in the channel was impossible. It just wasn't happening. If I can get a sunny day I may try a couple completely different tactics. Like loosening the header. And trying to get everything else buttoned up and doing the header last. But that part was such a bitch. I'd be reluctant to try it again without some help. If I could get my son out there on one end with me. I could probably get it in ok. But really two people on the header and one with a ratchet to tighten it down is best. If I had the normal kind of latching header it would be easier. As these aren't really latches on mine. It's a fitting with a bolt in it that tightens it down. So nothing snaps quickly into place.
I didn't take any before pics. Although I might have taken pics with the bow up but the bottom of the window having a gap.
I'm gonna try the other corner on the skin. But before that I'm going to run a completely hot bath. And soak the entire skin in the water. Then take the frame into the bathroom and try to immediately get it to go on.
I know I'm bitching and complaining alot here. But I should have done this in sunny weather. Much sunnier weather. Like on a very hot day. So alot of this is my fault. I don't think I'd be having near the trouble if it were hot out. And my biggest fear is ripping it. So I'm trying to go slow and steady. And not force anything.
I do wish Rampage or someone else offered an install service. Man if you had a heated garage and the knowledge to do this. You'd make a killing all winter long. As this is a huge PITA. There I go bitching again! lol.
AT least I'm still smiling. And at least it's still a Jeep!
For the door skins, the sharp pointed corner goes in first. Opposite diagonal corner goes in last. As for the top, I can not tell what surrounds you have.
What I do know is we installed a top on Monday. A new OEM top that had never been unrolled from it's factory ship position. We also had to modify the bows in the back to clear a fuel filler neck. We just put a propane heater in the back, covered the whole mess with a tarp to keep the heat in and monitored the temp and watched the wrinkles flatten out.
Your windshield header does not look correct.
What I do know is we installed a top on Monday. A new OEM top that had never been unrolled from it's factory ship position. We also had to modify the bows in the back to clear a fuel filler neck. We just put a propane heater in the back, covered the whole mess with a tarp to keep the heat in and monitored the temp and watched the wrinkles flatten out.
Your windshield header does not look correct.
OP
I will follow your advice on the skins. Thank you.
What doesn't look right about the header? The header itself or the the way I have the top installed into it? And if it's not the right header which one should I be using?
Thank you for posting, mrblaine. Your by far the best expert on this I could ever hope to talk to.
ranger101
TJ Addict
I don’t have any soft top experience but it looks like the bows aren’t in the right place to begin with. In the picture above showing the interior of the Jeep, why is that bow by the roll bar? Is that not supposed to be all the way back first before you set the top on? Get your frame in place first and then start putting the top on.
Heat is going to be your friend here. I once put on my soft top when I thought spring was coming and in the middle of the swap it started snowing. Never again!
Can you wait until summer to install or maybe have a friend with a heated garage that can be turned up to 80 or so?
Can you wait until summer to install or maybe have a friend with a heated garage that can be turned up to 80 or so?