Tightening suspension components and static tire balancing

mgroeger

mgroeger

TJ Enthusiast
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Aug 24, 2018
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Hurricane, UT
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2004 LJ - OME 2" lift, 1.25" JKS body lift, JKS upper/lower control arms, track bars and sway bar links, all of which are completely adjustable.

The Jeep is in the shop for an alignment and wheel balance. This is a performance shop that deals with 4x4 off road vehicles as well as track cars.
I have Level 8 Tracker 15x8 aluminum wheels with 33x10.5x15" KO2 tires on the Jeep with enough wheel weights on them to sink the Titanic. I mentioned that I am getting a vibration at 65 mph. They said we like to static balance larger off road tires. I did a little research on the forum and it appears that is the way to go.
They also stated that instead of setting toe to be slightly in they have found that setting the toe slightly out, around 1mil, is much better. They found that this keeps the Jeep from being "darty" when cutting the wheel, especially at higher speeds. It sounds logical... is it?

Suspension question:
The lift and all of it's components have been on the Jeep for about 6k miles. I was telling them I was hearing clunking coming from underneath and they confirmed that many of the parts were loose. They explained to me that, while I have a fully adjustable suspension which is a really nice setup for off roading, the components will tend to loosen as a daily driver from normal road and highway driving. In essence he said throw a wrench on the components during your oil change; we will show you which ones to keep an eye on. I believe he mentioned the huge 2" nut that is on the adjustable part of the lower control arm. He also noted that there will be a very slight "clunk" noise coming from the rear control arms because the JKS arms have a ball at the end of them. As that ball loosens up after breaking in it introduces play that is inherent to the design. He said he can show me a bad JKS arm and a good one to better explain.
On the surface it seems weird that I should have to keep an eye on suspension components but then again I'm a noob and these guys are extremely knowledgeable and also have their own Jeeps that are all set to off road.
 
Well, I can't speak to the JKS parts, but I throw a wrench on everything under there at each oil change. And a grease gun. Jeeps lead a tough life and deserve a little love from time to time. You also catch things before they become issues as well.
 
Just picked the Jeep up, wow is it tight now. He explained to me what needs to be checked on the control arms. It's that massive lock down nut. He also explained the importance of greasing everything on a regular basis. We talked about why he tows ever so slightly outward while most places choose to tow ever so slightly inward. We explained it from a racing perspective and why it can be applied to any car, even off road vehicles.
Overall very please with the way it turned out.
 
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mgroeger said:
We talked about why he tows ever so slightly outward while most places choose to tow ever so slightly inward. We explained it from a racing perspective and why it can be applied to any car, even off road vehicles.
Overall very please with the way it turned out.
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I run the same 33x10 (in a KM), and it's an excellent choice for the TJ so this is really interesting for me and thanks for posting.

I've been trying to tighten up my frontend over the past year but I have had more issues with steering not properly returning to centre and feeling a bit as you say "darty", it's driving me nuts!

With all the setting at factory, we tried adjusting the caster up to almost +7 degrees which has helped with stability but still not returning to centre properly and still feels "darty" at low or high speed I'll try tow out - ever so slightly.
 
Regardless of what that shop said, I'd stick with the 1/16" to 1/8" toe-in as is used for rear-wheel drive vehicles. Has anyone snuck a dropped Pitman arm onto your TJ? That darty feeling could be bump steer be caused by hitting bumps/dips in the road if a dropped Pitman arm was installed.
 
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Disclaimer: I have never intentionally toed out a rear/4 wheel drive vehicle. But.........

I would watch tire wear very close with it toe out. The toe in spec is to compensate for the natural tendency of the front tires to push out from center when driven. An 1/8 of toe out will scrub the tires sideways 28 feet every mile. Inspect for feathering across the tire regularly.
 
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Jerry Bransford said:
Regardless of what that shop said, I'd stick with the 1/16" to 1/8" toe-in as is used for rear-wheel drive vehicles. Has anyone snuck a dropped Pitman arm onto your TJ? That darty feeling could be bump steer be caused by hitting bumps/dips in the road if a dropped Pitman arm was installed.
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We did try a dropped Pitman arm at one stage and your right it didn't go well, just amplified things IMO. Removed it straight away

I'll do a separate thread on my steering wows eventually but it's complex and I don't want to hijack this thread, I'll be glad to have your input Jerry, that's for sure!
 
I was stymied so I went to my go-to guru mrblaine and this is what he said...

"Darty steering is caused by screwed up Ackermann angle. If it has the stock style steering and knuckles, the dartiness is caused by something else and the toe out is a band-aid.

When I do the F-450 knuckles, I have to add caster and toe it out slightly to get rid of the dartiness caused by the wheelbase of the Ford being much longer than a TJ or TJ Unlimited.

blaine"
 
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I wondered what you would say Jerry :)

I need to clarify that my steering was never darty. That "darty" comment came from the guy who worked on my Jeep saying that some Jeeps are darty and slight toe out will correct that. I don't have the dropped pitman arm and after looking at the steering shaft from the wheel I can tell that has been replaced recently since it looks new.
After driving it at highway speeds and just all around I was shocked at how firm and stable everything feels. Obviously tightening up those massive nuts that had loosened on the controls arms and a loose sway bar link played a roll in that but I believe the toe out did too.
The guy told me that no one else will toe a 4x4 out and some people think he's nuts. He explained that when they dial in their track cars (Porsche, Lambo, McLaren) they toe out ever so slightly because it adds stability. They applied that same principal to every off road vehicle from his JK that is geared up beyond belief for 36 Hours at Uwharie to an old J10. (BTW, I'm not name dropping vehicles hear for show, I'm trying to show these guys are doing this on everything).
He explained that every vehicle needs to have some sort of toe and that 99% do a toe in, they choose the opposite and have found good results with no abnormal tire wear.
I will absolutely be keeping an eye on the wear of the tire since this is new territory for me as well. I told him that I opened a can of worms on the forum with this discussion and he laughed and told me "no one is going to agree with you and they are going to think I'm nuts".
If I remember correctly the alignment sheet said the toe out was around -.04 on the left and -.03 on the right. If that isn't correct I'll reply with update.
 
Just curious...would more of a neutral toe (wheels straight aligned) instead of a toe-in or out give better tire wear overall or no? Would a neutral toe cause a Jeep to not handle properly?

You mentioned your tires had a LOT of weight on them for the balance? I suspected some tire balancing places don't take the time to take off the old weights first and they just add more to counterbalance the old weights....therefore you wind up with all those weights.? I static balance my own tires now and have no tire balancing problems :)
 
My understanding is that 0 toe is a no no. Technically and in theory your tires would wear perfectly, however you will wander on the road especially on a grooved concrete surface like a highway. So some form of toe is needed.

The tires were previously dynamic balanced, hence the massive amount of weights. What they did this time was take the tire/rim as is (left the weights on) and static balance them which resulted in removing much of the old weights and adding weights to different areas on the rim. The 4 tires that had been on (around 6k miles) had significant weight removal and repositioning. The spare, which had not seen the road yet, actually needed very little re-balancing and the lip weights actually remained on that one as well as adding some weight during the static balancing.
I may take the time to educate myself on how to static balance on my own. I'm learning that for the bigger tires static is the way to go. I'm such a noob... so much to learn.
 
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The front tires tend to open up wider (towards toe-out) while driving on a RWD vehicle, the toe-in is there to compensate for that and is essentially going to give close to or at zero toe-in (no toe-in or toe-out) while driving. Insufficient or no toe-in or even toe-out on a RWD vehicle will give it too much toe-out while driving.
 
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Thanks for the explanation Jerry. I'm going to let things ride (no pun intended) and see where this goes in terms of tire wear.

Regarding the suspension part of the thread...
Does anyone have the JKS J-Flex adjustable control arms? All of the suspension components are now properly tightened but still need to be greased. I am getting a click sometimes when stopping or going over a speed bump. The guy at the shop and I went over it and took it for a ride and he explained that I will hear those sounds coming from this suspension. He explained, and showed me on some other parts, that it is from the ball end of the control arm. That when a significant force is put against the axle, that force gets transferred through the control arm into that ball and you will hear a click now that the ball end is broken in.
From other posts I am seeing it seems once you leave that factory suspension and go full adjustable components its a new ball game. Greasing is essential and throwing a wrench on it at oils changes to check everything is needed as well.
 
mgroeger said:
...Regarding the suspension part of the thread...
Does anyone have the JKS J-Flex adjustable control arms? All of the suspension components are now properly tightened but still need to be greased. I am getting a click sometimes when stopping or going over a speed bump. The guy at the shop and I went over it and took it for a ride and he explained that I will hear those sounds coming from this suspension. He explained, and showed me on some other parts, that it is from the ball end of the control arm. That when a significant force is put against the axle, that force gets transferred through the control arm into that ball and you will hear a click now that the ball end is broken in.
From other posts I am seeing it seems once you leave that factory suspension and go full adjustable components its a new ball game. Greasing is essential and throwing a wrench on it at oils changes to check everything is needed as well.
Click to expand...
My Currie Johnny Joints contain a steel ball held by a pair of polyurethane bushings and they don't click or make a noise after 14 years of barely ever even having been greased. They creak on occasion on a tough rock crawling trail as they flex/move around but...
 
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