Warn mid frame winch resource thread

[Blackjack]

This will be a bit of a ramble and little disjointed at times but hopefully I can help share what I know about these winches.

First thing you need to know is who this guy is

This is Tom Telford and he was the godfather of many of the products we now take for granted in the offroad world with a career at Warn that spanned from the 70s to the early 2000s. He had his hands in everything from winch and drivetrain products (both OEM and aftermarket) and was the driving force behind the Warn Axle program that included the Jeep hub conversions and full floater kits. He was instrumental in bringing the three stage planetary winch to market for Warn in the mid 80s and was the designer of the cone brake that is still used in winches today.

The term Mid Frame refers to winches larger than the utility lines warn offers but smaller than the large frame winches. Typically they have a 4.5 inch by 10 inch bolt pattern (there are exceptions like the M6000SDP and the 9.0Rc) and "foot down" mounting position although many models can be mounted "foot forward" as well. They have been produced over the years in capacities ranging from 4500 up to 12000 pounds. A few examples not including the value winches (ie Magnum/Tabor and VR):

M4500
M5000
M6000
M6000SDP
M8000
x8000I
XD9000
XD9000i
hs9500
hs9500i
9.0Rc
9.5XP
9.5ti
9.5cti
12.0Endurance

The Powerplant (compressor) winch and Zeon fall in here but probably deserve there own threads.

Layout of the majority of Midframes are pretty basic, a drum, two drum supports with the motor on one and the gear train on the opposite. Drivetrain consists of three planetary gears, a sliding ring gear for free spooling, and a brake. The electrical side of things consist of a motor, control pack and a pendant (remote). Motors varied over the years from 1.9 hp permanent magnet to the now famous 6 hp XP notor. Control packs are basic consisting of solenoids or a contactor. Lubrication from the early years up to a few years ago was Aeroshell #17 but Shell discontinued it so Warn now specs Philips Moly Low Temp #1.

 

[Blackjack]

Electrically things are pretty basic. Early winches used "old Ford style" solenoids and a three wire control system. Those were changed in the late 90s to "new Ford style" and for a short time the three wire control. That was later changed to a five wire control where both the hot and ground both as a safety issue and increased solenoid durabilty. I have added some wiring diagrams and my own notes on switch and plug pinouts.

 

[Zorba]

Ah! I didn't realize the bus bars got hot. I'll need to check my wiring. Thank you.

 

[Blackjack]

Continuing on electrics.

Old Ford solenoid

New Ford and XP

Current winches use an Albright contactor

 

[Blackjack]

There are three different styles of pendant (remote) that have been used:

The classic

2nd gen. This was Warns first attempt to update the classic and in my opinion was not their best work. After decades of teaching people that up was out and down was in they decided to put a sideways switch in. Now Warn will tell you it is supposed to be intuitive since the rocker cover has a bump and a dimple to indicate the in and out modes. Bigger problem with this remote is a serious lack of durability and they cannot be repaired.

3rd gen. This is the current generation of remote and is everything I like in a remote. They went with a much more robust switch and oriented it the correct way. They did keep the braille although I am not sure how that works when you are wearing gloves. Ergos are good and they are just solid all the way around.

The socket that connects the remote to the control pack is a Warn proprietary design with two generations. First gen is round and started with three pins and later five. Current winches use a "D" plug that is backwards compatible with the round remote.

 

[Blackjack]

With the mid frames closing in on thirty years of production there have been a lot of different motors used but the three most common you will most likely run into are the Wapsa, BIC, and SACO. In Warn motor parlance you will hear motor referred to as either long or short.

First is the Wapsa used from late 80s until 1999 and were produced by Bosch of Brazil. The short version is 2.0 hp and was used on 6k, 8k and first gen xd9000 (more on this later). Long motors are 2.5 hp and were used on second gen xd9000/i (these were more common on large frame winches). These motors are pretty typical series wound motors for the time.

Next up is the BIC or Best In Class. This in a way was Warn trying to make lemonade from the big fat lemon Bosch of Brazil handed them. Bosch basically forced Warn to use this motor. They did at least get to have some control in its design and after a few wrinkles came up with a decent motor but not without some flaws I will cover later. Compared to the mule that is the Wapsa this motor is a thoroughbred horse. Where the Wapsa when you are abusing it will start sending up smoke signals to let you know you are being bad the BIC will give you every thing it has until it just drops. It does has a higher free rev speed than the Wapsa so they give better no load line speed and it is a bit more efficient in the amp draw department. Short motor has 4.8 hp (not a typo) and was used on M6, M8 and 9.0Rc. Long motors are 4.6 hp and used on xd9000/i, hs9500/i (with a special armature shaft), 9.5ti and 9.5cti.

Next up is the SACO which a Japanese motor company with their production done in the PRC. This change was sprung on Warn when Bosch closed the plant the BIC motors were being produced so Warn needed a new supplier. They had been using SACO for motors on the Tabor and VR winches so Warn tapped them to for their higher end motors as well. From my experience these motors give near BIC motor performance and dealt with some of the flaws the BIC has but is has a couple of its own I will address later. The motor are still referred to as short and long with the same specs and application coverage as the BIC.

 

[Irun]

As always great information! I've seen you mention remotes, so this helps with what's good and bad. On the motors, you didn't mention where the BIC version was made?

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Awesome thread. Thanks for posting.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Always up for a gearhead history lesson. Great write-up Black.

 

[Longwhitejeep]

Awesome information! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Blackjack]

As always great information! I've seen you mention remotes, so this helps with what's good and bad. On the motors, you didn't mention where the BIC version was made?

Thanks. I added it to the post but they were produced by Bosch of Brazil.

 

[Blackjack]

And of course we can not forget the now famous (infamous?) XP motor PN 68608. But before I do a little bit of past Warn motor innovation.

In the early 90s the xd9000 (eXtreme Duty 9000) was introduced. To the astute observer it was hard not to notice that it shared almost the exact same specs as the M8000. The same motor hp and gear ratio (check out the 9.0Rc) so what was the deal you ask? Two things, first is that Warn like they did with the 8274 had sandbagged the specs which was not uncommon years ago. Now days it is pretty common to advertise a winches rating as the maximum that was achieved in the lab. But the innovation that gave the xd its extreme duty was the special end cap they developed to help cool both the brushes and the armature bushing of the Wapsa motor.

A few years later the xd9000/i was changed to give an increase in line speed by going to the long Wapsa motor and 156:1 gear ratio. The change also saw a change to the motor end cap. Gone with the innovative brush cooling cap for something a bit more mundane. It still at least helped with cooling the armature bushing but that is about it.

When the BIC motor came out the finned cap was marketing decoration and little else. It was only used on a limited number of winches before it was finally phased out.

So in November of 2003 the 9.5xp (hey look here https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/new-warn-9-5xp.193180/ ) was released and IMO Warns ultimate workhorse was born. Updated frame with actual drum sealing and of course the 6.0hp parallel series wound motor. Yes the brush cap has what kinda looks like fins but the cap was improved to prevent water incursion unlike the cap on the BIC motors.
This winch also has a little secret that was only known by a few but with the release of the 8274-70 the cat is out of the bag. The XP has the same gear ratio as the xd9000 but interestingly enough according to Warn the 6.0hp motor only increased the pulling power by 500 pounds? Well that was not exactly accurate the XP can pull in excess of 11,000 pounds. Warn smartly sandbagged the specs because the 6.2 ft/min at 9500 pounds made it the king of full pull line speed at the time.

This has become the motor of choice for a lot of modders and I have use them to mod 8274s, a Frankenstein M12, and this wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[Ole Rusty]

Great write up. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[tnjeepguy]

What winches can this fit on ? To upgrade ?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OV9QE6/?tag=wranglerorg-20

Any mid frame, including the 8274 ?? thanks D

 

[Blackjack]

What winches can this fit on ? To upgrade ?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OV9QE6/?tag=wranglerorg-20

Any mid frame, including the 8274 ?? thanks D

The only mid frame that can use this motor is either the 9.5xp which it is for or a xd9000 with the 156:1 ratio. The other mid frames either have the wrong gear ratio and the I series frames cannot accommodate the larger solenoids or contactor needed for the larger motor.

 

[JMT]

@Blackjack What about the VR EVO series. I just saw this one listed 1-hour ago for $500. Brand new in box. Is it worth it? I may pick it up if so.

VR EVO 10-S WINCH - 103253​

 

[Blackjack]

@Blackjack What about the VR EVO series. I just saw this one lasted 1-hour ago for $500. Brand new in box. Is it worth it? I may pick it up if so.

VR EVO 10-S WINCH - 103253​

As a value winch they are ok. I prefer the previous gen VR personally and the EVO is under recall for an issue with wit the wireless remote.

 

[Rickyd]

And of course we can not forget the now famous (infamous?) XP motor PN 68608. But before I do a little bit of past Warn motor innovation.

In the early 90s the xd9000 (eXtreme Duty 9000) was introduced. To the astute observer it was hard not to notice that it shared almost the exact same specs as the M8000. The same motor hp and gear ratio (check out the 9.0Rc) so what was the deal you ask? Two things, first is that Warn like they did with the 8274 had sandbagged the specs which was not uncommon years ago. Now days it is pretty common to advertise a winches rating as the maximum that was achieved in the lab. But the innovation that gave the xd its extreme duty was the special end cap they developed to help cool both the brushes and the armature bushing of the Wapsa motor.

View attachment 399079

View attachment 399080

View attachment 399081

A few years later the xd9000/i was changed to give an increase in line speed by going to the long Wapsa motor and 156:1 gear ratio. The change also saw a change to the motor end cap. Gone with the innovative brush cooling cap for something a bit more mundane. It still at least helped with cooling the armature bushing but that is about it.

View attachment 399077

View attachment 399078
When the BIC motor came out the finned cap was marketing decoration and little else. It was only used on a limited number of winches before it was finally phased out. View attachment 399075

View attachment 399076

So in November of 2003 the 9.5xp (hey look here https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/new-warn-9-5xp.193180/ ) was released and IMO Warns ultimate workhorse was born. Updated frame with actual drum sealing and of course the 6.0hp parallel series wound motor. Yes the brush cap has what kinda looks like fins but the cap was improved to prevent water incursion unlike the cap on the BIC motors.
This winch also has a little secret that was only known by a few but with the release of the 8274-70 the cat is out of the bag. The XP has the same gear ratio as the xd9000 but interestingly enough according to Warn the 6.0hp motor only increased the pulling power by 500 pounds? Well that was not exactly accurate the XP can pull in excess of 11,000 pounds. Warn smartly sandbagged the specs because the 6.2 ft/min at 9500 pounds made it the king of full pull line speed at the time.

View attachment 399074

This has become the motor of choice for a lot of modders and I have use them to mod 8274s, a Frankenstein M12, and this wolf in sheep's clothing.
View attachment 399083

What was needed to put that 6hp motor and vr12 together?

 

[Blackjack]

What was needed to put that 6hp motor and vr12 together?

It is a 9.5xp made to look like a vr12. It is a joke for the client I put it together for. If you put a 6hp motor in a vr12 it would pull itself apart.

 

[tnjeepguy]

"EVO is under recall for an issue with wit the wireless remote" Cut mine off and just wired the remote like normal.

JMT try and buy cheaper, good winch and syn line is worth near half that ?? My cheap advice. D