What am I missing here? (a death wobble thread)

[schmidtke_c]

Morning Eveyone,

Wouldn't you know the minute I pay the thing off we go down the rabbit hole. I made sure to spend the time and money to get all the quality parts and dial things in, yet it don't seem like I am making any progress here. to date and as of the the last 6 months it has literally a whole new front end, there is very few things I havent replaced. I bought new tires thinking they are screwed up, no dice. dialed my castor in to around 5-5.5 degrees no difference, set the toe-in to 3\16th from the 1\8th it was set to when this started, put new ball joints in and retorqued every bolt i can see or think of.

Clearly i have to be missing something, i went down the list and checked to make sure all the jam nuts are locked down and control arms are tight. track bar is good the bracket is new and the bolt is a snug fit. I followed all the torque charts and when i installed the Rockjock kit i followed their specs. I just don't get it. what the heck am i overlooking here. Ever since i got the jeep its been super sensitive to everything i don't see anything in the frame that would indicate and kind of damage or tweaking that would make it impossible to fix. when it was on 33's I got 1 good season out of it but now it seems like i cant make it a half mile before it wants to check out. I'm at a loss here and losing hope, I don't want to get to the point of just offing it to someone else just to get another project. pick my brain, maybe you can think of something i haven't.

Havent touched the knuckles, the pitman arm or the steering box.

the importants:
05TJ, 42rle, np231,
4 inch rock jock complete lift, (incuded)
control arms upper and lower
Rockjock steering
both trackbars,
Antirock,
mudtrac 35's (35-12.5-15) (28psi)
Adam's front and rear drive shafts,
revolution gear axle shafts front and rear
Spicer ball joints
I do not run a steering stablizer.

if it matters:
subby stinger bumper with 12k winch
rear bumper with tire carrier and 35 inch tire on it,
my normal load includes the backseat a few straps, a very small 50 piece essentials tool set,
I don't carry much else in the vehicle.

Just trying to be as thorough as possible to get the best information back.

 

[afusco1222]

What about the upper axle bushing for the upper control arms?

 

[schmidtke_c]

What about the upper axle bushing for the upper control arms?

I don't recall the last time i replaced them to be honest. It's been over a year - at least if i had to guess.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Two items are always high on my list as possible causes/enablers of DW. But first, are you actually experiencing true full-blown OMB my eyes are blurring my TJ is out of control type of DW, or is it just a speed sensitive shimmy? A shimmy will stop if you slow down below the speed it starts shimmying at. True DW won't stop until you slow down nearly to a full stop.

First are the tires... few shops spend enough time to get big tires balanced well enough to not be on the verge of causing DW if anything else is loose. "Good enough" for smaller tires is not usually good enough for bigger Jeep size tires and few shops give their guys enough time to get our big tires well enough to not cause problems.

Second check for slop in the front-end. With the tires on the ground have a helper do repetitive quick short left/right/left turns of the steering wheel while you closely watch everything that moves on the front-end. Look for any slop/movement where things are bolted together. There should be zero sideways slop/movement where parts are bolted in place or attached to each other, including the track bar while the steering wheel is quick-turned left-right-left repeatedly. My last near DW was cause by two worn joints on my Currectlync drag link that were moving around. Know that the tie rod and drag link have normal rotational play around their long axis since they are mounted on ball joints.

And such slop is easier to find if the engine isn't running while doing the above. When the engine isn't running you can often hear noise that can lead you to a loose joint or worn part.

 

[schmidtke_c]

Two items are always high on my list as possible causes/enablers of DW. But first, are you actually experiencing true full-blown OMB my eyes are blurring my TJ is out of control type of DW, or is it just a speed sensitive shimmy? A shimmy will stop if you slow down below the speed it starts shimmying at. True DW won't stop until you slow down nearly to a full stop.

First are the tires... few shops spend enough time to get big tires balanced well enough to not be on the verge of causing DW if anything else is loose. "Good enough" for smaller tires is not usually good enough for bigger Jeep size tires and few shops give their guys enough time to get our big tires well enough to not cause problems.

Second check for slop in the front-end. With the tires on the ground have a helper do repetitive quick short left/right/left turns of the steering wheel while you closely watch everything that moves on the front-end. Look for any slop/movement where things are bolted together. There should be zero sideways slop/movement where parts are bolted in place or attached to each other, including the track bar while the steering wheel is quick-turned left-right-left repeatedly. My last near DW was cause by two worn joints on my Currectlync drag link that were moving around. Know that the tie rod and drag link have normal rotational play around their long axis since they are mounted on ball joints.

And such slop is easier to find if the engine isn't running while doing the above. When the engine isn't running you can often hear noise that can lead you to a loose joint or worn part.

Morning Jerry,

This is full blown, change your pants, rip the steering wheel out of your hands type wobble that forces me to completely stop the vehicle. I've had some pretty stead shimmies that I've been able to eliminate from here and there, this is very much speed sensitive and something just don't feel right about it. Usually when things are good and clear - there is minimal feed back in the steering and things feel very in control and sturdy. lately it hasn't felt that way.

I did notice when i got the truck back from the tire shop, it took what i would consider a lot of weight to "balance" these tires and its kind of seems like the weights are not just inner or outer on the wheel but some mid, some outside and some inside. I've never been a fan of stick on weights mostly because they are so easy to lose but that's just an obvious opinion. The shop also balanced them at like 40 something PSI im not sure if that makes any difference.

I checked for slop before but i will definitely take another look, like i said before there is always a possibility I've overlooked something. i do know there is a little rotational play in the steering but no popping or noise when jerking, putting, pushing,, prodding or prying or things. when i retorqued my control arms i unlocked the jam nuts and made sure everything was sitting neutral before locking everything back down as well. is there a possiblity maybe the front trackbar lock nut isnt torqued enough?

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Good plan to check the front-end again. I doubt a loose lock nut on the track bar length adjustment could be a contributor, my bet is that shop just really screwed up the tire balance. I'd take it to a tire store or 4x4 shop that sells and installs big tires that is used to balancing them, few car tire stores are up to that job.

 

[AndyG]

I don't recall the last time i replaced them to be honest. It's been over a year - at least if i had to guess.

You can toe it out 5/8” and drive it to test those -

Also you may want to put the front tires on the rear and see if anything changes

 

[Rickyd]

Many people overlook the fact that tires can be out of round and be balanced. Same with bent rims.

Do you have steel wheels? When you spin them on the jeep does the bead move back and forth? Does the tread move up and down by a lot? When i had dw it was because of a combination of these

And how wide are your wheels? The further they stick out the more leverage they will have over the axle

 

[Artsifrtsi]

Another thing in addition to @Jerry Bransford and @AndyG recommendations. I do not see mention of shocks... try pulling the lower front shocks loose, and see if the shocks give you any resistance when trying to compress them. My bet though is agreeing with Jerry's thoughts on the tires...

 

[schmidtke_c]

Many people overlook the fact that tires can be out of round and be balanced. Same with bent rims.

Do you have steel wheels? When you spin them on the jeep does the bead move back and forth? Does the tread move up and down by a lot? When i had dw it was because of a combination of these

And how wide are your wheels? The further they stick out the more leverage they will have over the axle

I run Mammoth model: Boulder -19 offset/ 3.75 backspace. 15x8. 1 piece aluminum their website says. I also ran them with 33's and didn't have nearly as many issues but that's not to say anything is right or wrong just puzzles the ever living hell out of me. When I get home tonight I'll jack it up and spend them just to see but I don't recall them ever being bent or warped in anyway.

 

[schmidtke_c]

Another thing in addition to @Jerry Bransford and @AndyG recommendations. I do not see mention of shocks... try pulling the lower front shocks loose, and see if the shocks give you any resistance when trying to compress them. My bet though is agreeing with Jerry's thoughts on the tires...

Running fox preformance 2.0's they have probably 10k or so on them maybe.

I'll give them a check when I get home though, best to rule everything out the best I can.

 

[TheBoogieman]

I run Mammoth model: Boulder -19 offset/ 3.75 backspace. 15x8. 1 piece aluminum their website says. I also ran them with 33's and didn't have nearly as many issues but that's not to say anything is right or wrong just puzzles the ever living hell out of me. When I get home tonight I'll jack it up and spend them just to see but I don't recall them ever being bent or warped in anyway.

I doubt it's the wheels. Mine balanced great on 33s with very little weight (2-2.5oz each). More likely, it would be the tires.

 

[Cooper Smith]

First are the tires... few shops spend enough time to get big tires balanced well enough to not be on the verge of causing DW if anything else is loose. "Good enough" for smaller tires is not usually good enough for bigger Jeep size tires and few shops give their guys enough time to get our big tires well enough to not cause problems.

I had DW ever since I bought my Jeep in August, and had DW randomly until November. Jerry and Artsifrtsi both told me to wait until I had my new tires mounted and balanced. I'm the kinda that freaks out until things get fixed. I checked every bushing (My CA bushings are still on the chopping block to get done) but couldn't find a real amount of play. I put a prybar under my tires to check ball joints. Did like 12 dry steering tests. Found NOTHING. I was at my wit's end and about to give up. I remembered back to when Walmart mounted my tires a few days after purchasing my TJ. I found multiple sticky wheel weights falling off or gone in November after my DW started to get worse. A lot of times a tire shop will mount 31-35" tires and, as Jerry said, get them "good enough" in the time they're given. That's fine on a 2wd farm truck or a Prius, but not our solid front axle short wheelbase Jeeps. I guess tire shops give the kids timers and try to get them done quick and ASAP. Discount Tire usually has those kids pacing around like bees, so tipping them gives them an incentive to get the balance right. Walmart is no different. Essentially what happened was in September I had my first DW episode after losing a band of weights, and it happened more and more frequently. Had it aligned, all that BS. Still kept getting DW. It was annoying as fuck. What was odd was that even though it was no doubt DW, it shook itself nearly apart. My phone got tossed off my seat onto the floor. The stick in 4th gear was moving all the fuck around. When I went under 55 MPH, it went away. VERY, very weird.

I bought 4 new 29" tires and gave the kid at Discount Tire $20 to do all 4 perfect. I drove to work right after at 70 MPH the whole way. Not a shimmy, not a single wobble except for some slight bump steer due to the cheap RC lift. Currently, I have had (maybe) one shimmy from hitting one hell of a bump on an expansion joint. I was going 50-55 and I may be confusing it with bump-steer. You get anxious around bumps after dealing with DW... One thing to note: your steering stabilizer (or lack thereof) has NOTHING to do with your DW. I'm sure you know that, but my cry for help on here has 3 pages of debate on steering stabilizers and DW. Someone said it was enough to make my post a sticky, lol. A SS is just a passive 50:50 valve to dampen the bumps in the road so don't worry about it effecting the oscillations.

The physics term for the concept that causes DW is "precession". I don't know how it works, but tire balance, out of round tires, and cheap wheels throw off the equilibrium that keep our steering axis in check. When I first had DW, I didn't think tires played that much of an effect on DW. Thought it could ONLY be worn parts. The store manager of a Mr. Tire even told me balancing wouldn't cause it so they didn't want to balance tires that were balanced a few months ago. I just left. So not only do the people at smaller tire shops give themselves enough time to get balancing right, some of them don't know what poor balance can actually do to a SFA truck or SUV.

Go to Discount Tire, get them balanced, and tip the person that balances them. Saved me a WORLD of hurt replacing everything with the parts cannon.

 

[AndyG]

Good plan to check the front-end again. I doubt a loose lock nut on the track bar length adjustment could be a contributor, my bet is that shop just really screwed up the tire balance. I'd take it to a tire store or 4x4 shop that sells and installs big tires that is used to balancing them, few car tire stores are up to that job.

This made me think of listing cases / causes I’ve had of death wobble-

- bad upper front right control arm bushing (only a bump in a sweeping left turn would trigger it). Blaine lit the path on diagnosing that.

- loose track bar jam nut (easily preventable with proper torque)

- low tire pressure

- water in a beadlock rim from a big puddle .(I’d call this a freak occurrence)

-loose track bar bolt at the axle and once also at the frame.

- also one case of a worn track bar bushing on my F250, same general front end design, speed was what set it off every time.

- once a brake caliper issue would set it off but I’m struggling to call it death wobble- same oscillation but only under braking- bad bad shimmy may be a better term. Nerve wracking for sure.

All said these are outliers- every TJ has 4 tires and numerous weights- I think the majority of DW threads we see here are tire related cases.

There is no substitute for well balanced tires in good overall condition on these. The tire work is critical.

 

[schmidtke_c]

This made me think of listing cases / causes I’ve had of death wobble-

- bad upper front right control arm bushing (only a bump in a sweeping left turn would trigger it). Blaine lit the path on diagnosing that.

- loose track bar jam nut (easily preventable with proper torque)

- low tire pressure

- water in a beadlock rim from a big puddle .(I’d call this a freak occurrence)

-loose track bar bolt at the axle and once also at the frame.

- also one case of a worn track bar bushing on my F250, same general front end design, speed was what set it off every time.

- once a brake caliper issue would set it off but I’m struggling to call it death wobble- same oscillation but only under braking- bad bad shimmy may be a better term. Nerve wracking for sure.

All said these are outliers- every TJ has 4 tires and numerous weights- I think the majority of DW threads we see here are tire related cases.

There is no substitute for well balanced tires in good overall condition on these. The tire work is critical.

Jeez boss... we talking women or Jeeps here? seems like a pretty needy list you've had.

I had DW ever since I bought my Jeep in August, and had DW randomly until November. Jerry and Artsifrtsi both told me to wait until I had my new tires mounted and balanced. I'm the kinda that freaks out until things get fixed. I checked every bushing (My CA bushings are still on the chopping block to get done) but couldn't find a real amount of play. I put a prybar under my tires to check ball joints. Did like 12 dry steering tests. Found NOTHING. I was at my wit's end and about to give up. I remembered back to when Walmart mounted my tires a few days after purchasing my TJ. I found multiple sticky wheel weights falling off or gone in November after my DW started to get worse. A lot of times a tire shop will mount 31-35" tires and, as Jerry said, get them "good enough" in the time they're given. That's fine on a 2wd farm truck or a Prius, but not our solid front axle short wheelbase Jeeps. I guess tire shops give the kids timers and try to get them done quick and ASAP. Discount Tire usually has those kids pacing around like bees, so tipping them gives them an incentive to get the balance right. Walmart is no different. Essentially what happened was in September I had my first DW episode after losing a band of weights, and it happened more and more frequently. Had it aligned, all that BS. Still kept getting DW. It was annoying as fuck. What was odd was that even though it was no doubt DW, it shook itself nearly apart. My phone got tossed off my seat onto the floor. The stick in 4th gear was moving all the fuck around. When I went under 55 MPH, it went away. VERY, very weird.

I bought 4 new 29" tires and gave the kid at Discount Tire $20 to do all 4 perfect. I drove to work right after at 70 MPH the whole way. Not a shimmy, not a single wobble except for some slight bump steer due to the cheap RC lift. Currently, I have had (maybe) one shimmy from hitting one hell of a bump on an expansion joint. I was going 50-55 and I may be confusing it with bump-steer. You get anxious around bumps after dealing with DW... One thing to note: your steering stabilizer (or lack thereof) has NOTHING to do with your DW. I'm sure you know that, but my cry for help on here has 3 pages of debate on steering stabilizers and DW. Someone said it was enough to make my post a sticky, lol. A SS is just a passive 50:50 valve to dampen the bumps in the road so don't worry about it effecting the oscillations.

The physics term for the concept that causes DW is "precession". I don't know how it works, but tire balance, out of round tires, and cheap wheels throw off the equilibrium that keep our steering axis in check. When I first had DW, I didn't think tires played that much of an effect on DW. Thought it could ONLY be worn parts. The store manager of a Mr. Tire even told me balancing wouldn't cause it so they didn't want to balance tires that were balanced a few months ago. I just left. So not only do the people at smaller tire shops give themselves enough time to get balancing right, some of them don't know what poor balance can actually do to a SFA truck or SUV.

Go to Discount Tire, get them balanced, and tip the person that balances them. Saved me a WORLD of hurt replacing everything with the parts cannon.

I think the sad part about this is that in my heart I know it's probably the tires and I didn't want to believe it because I already started at Discount tire... but only after I literally emptied every pocket, dropped serious coin to have the best suspension I could afford (rock jock). Replaced every joint, bushing, bearing or unit (sometimes more than once) and still sit here at 2 am after working and spending another 3 hours in the garage tinkering just to come up with the same thoughts you've mentions... I guess in short great minds think a like.

I reached out to another shop, I know they have a background in large tires so hopefully they can get me set up for greatness. At this point I'd probably even consider buying another set just for piece of mind if I knew that's all it was.

 

[cpwolf]

I’d start by taking the back tires to front and seeing if you see any difference at all. If you do, then tires are an issue.

I’d got that route of balancing anyway.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

I think the sad part about this is that in my heart I know it's probably the tires and I didn't want to believe it because I already started at Discount tire...

Discount Tire has a great reputation for small car-size tires but in my personal experience they're not great with big Jeep-size tires. I took my TJ with its 35's (purchased from them) to get rebalanced after they started hinting at DW. It I had to go back to the store twice more that day for a total of three balance jobs in one day before they finally got them balanced well enough. They got me out too quickly and sent me out claiming they were "perfect" the first two times and only spent enough time the third time to get them balanced well enough to make me happy.

 

[schmidtke_c]

I’d start by taking the back tires to front and seeing if you see any difference at all. If you do, then tires are an issue.

I’d got that route of balancing anyway.

I think it's safe to say if they couldn't balance the front two, the back 3 wont be any better unfortunately. Got an appointment Friday just gonna drop her off early am, let them know ill come get it at the end of the day. 10 hours should be plenty to make sure things are as close to perfection as could be expected.

 

[AndyG]

If you get to a certain speed and it starts to oscillate and go into death wobble - that is most likely tires.

If it is caused by a bump, that is usually a connection.

These aren’t hard rules but if you think about how things work this is a decent rule of thumb.

 

[schmidtke_c]

Discount Tire has a great reputation for small car-size tires but in my personal experience they're not great with big Jeep-size tires. I took my TJ with its 35's (purchased from them) to get rebalanced after they started hinting at DW. It I had to go back to the store twice more that day for a total of three balance jobs in one day before they finally got them balanced well enough. They got me out too quickly and sent me out claiming they were "perfect" the first two times and only spent enough time the third time to get them balanced well enough to make me happy.

Bummer that we couldn't expect perfection but I don't really blame them, the short wheel base seems to make everything more difficult 10 fold. I had a set of 31's put on the WJ winter beater by them it, took a while but they comeback excellent. That was the main reason i went back with the 35's not realizing how much more difficult they would be to zero out was 100% my downfall.